I"m not answering for Origen. But I will say that Calvinism has a way of keeping secrets - such as, no matter how good a person is, how selfless the acts, how tender the love that is shown - the secret we know is that every moment is sin upon sin, rage against God, and pure hypocrisy.
Same thing with God’s love - God loves you so much etc etc - but the secret we won’t tell you is - He’s already made his choices who lives and who burns, and it has nothing to do with you at all.
It’s always the behind-the-scenes stuff that gets my goat.
What is God’s understanding & definition of “does good” in Romans 3:12 & the context of Romans chapters 1 through 5?
Let’s not confuse our thoughts with His:
Isa.55:8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
So what is “does good”? Keeping the whole law perfectly? The ten commandments? The Sermon in Mt.5-7? All the dictates of human conscience? Or perhaps something like this?:
Mt.19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what GOOD THING SHALL I DO, that I may have aionion life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
If only God is good, are humans capable, in & of themselves, of doing genuine good? Or does that require God’s Spirit:
Ga.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, GOODNESS, faithfulness,
Mk. 10:18 “Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied, “No one is good except God alone.
The word “goodness” at Galatians 5:22 is the same Greek word for “good” at Romans 3:12.
Did Mother Teresa have God’s Spirit? Was she trying to earn her way into heaven or buy hell-fire insurance with works? (BTW, I heard a message by Benny Hinn the other day stating that those who supposedly accept Jesus merely as a fire insurance policy aren’t even saved. He spoke of hell, but didn’t say if it was for torment, oblivion or purification.)
Many people of Jesus’ time looked up to the Pharisees as super religious “do-gooders”. Did they do no good at all? Yet Jesus says:
“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Mt.5:20)
Do members of hell’s angels, heroin addicts and serial killers do no good at all?
“But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” (Lk.12:48)
Lk.15:28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’
31 “ ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”
How much good did the criminal on the cross do? Yet Jesus said:
“Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Lk.23:43)
This is the consistently inept nature of Calvinism… its default position in taking as carte blanche texts that are germane to a context and so denuding such of proper relevance by errantly applying such texts across the board to misconstrue their meaning into something that’s NOT being said. The by-product of that is to have verses in contradiction of each other, for example…
Was Paul lying or self-deceived, or is there a context to be considered? Well not for Calvinism.
Was Paul wrong… or was there a given context into which Paul’s words are to be understood? THAT, as opposed to the lame proof-texting of Calvinism’s vacuous system of condemnation.
Paidion, In answer to your question, I voted no. The reason for my answer is that I believe the moral law IS the Law of God(the word) that is written in the heart and mind of every person that comes into the world. Just as the mathematical and scientific laws of the universe are not man-made, neither is the moral law. It comes from the Creator as Moses said “The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart that you should do it.” If a person says, ‘I don’t believe in God’ yet follows this moral law, in essence he/she is still following God because as John says, the Word is God.
What a twist… Would it be fair to say, then, that in your view that moral people are not, non-believers even though they claim to be agnostic or atheistic. I could accept that. I think people might believe in morality, follow it, claim to be atheistic and just be ignorant the force behind their morality (God). Or am I misunderstanding you?
Well it’s good to see you acknowledge this… and yet in your previous posts up the page you completely ignore that very thing, i.e., **context **in which you apply, as I’ve pointed out, a whole swathe of texts out of context to give your Calvinistic pretext in superimposing all those scriptures holus-bolus right across the nature of humanity… **thus promulgating “the condemnation” so inherent within Calvinism. **
Well it’s good to see you acknowledge this… and yet in your previous posts up the page you completely ignore that very thing, i.e., **context **in which you apply, as I’ve pointed out, a whole swathe of texts out of context to give your “total depravety” pretext in superimposing all those scriptures holus-bolus right across the nature of humanity… thus promulgating “the condemnation” so inherent within the “total depravity” position.
Well - more often than not - I provide the Calvinist viewpoints, from the sites Got Questions and CARM. Usually, to shave a biblical perspective. And I did offer Matt Slick’s answer from CARM - in this very thread.
Can atheists be ethical?
As a public service, here’s the Got Questions position on Total Depravity:
Gabe, I think we are on the same page. As Romans 2:13-15 says "“for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law, these although not having the law(written down on paper), are a law to themselves who show the work of the law (moral law/Law of God/word)written in their hearts…” Verse 26 goes on to say " “Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the (moral) law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision( a circumcision of the heart).”
To me, such people are believing in God, per se, because they are believing in what God has put in our hearts and minds to be right and true.
Origen, I don’t know who Wayne Barber is, but from his words I’m glad I don’t know him because to me, such words come straight from the mouth of a viper( metaphorically speaking). Obviously he does not read the Bible as it tells of those who were righteous. Mary and Joseph certainly did not teach Jesus such nonsense. On the contrary, He was raised as a Son of God and taught the ways of His heavenly Father. And as Jesus tells us, whoever teaches a child any differently is in danger and “it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck…”
I was thinking the same thing. Indeed, this has been my position now for probably 3-4 years. I was thinking how Christianity has turned from “Doing righteousness” to “believing in righteousness while failing to live it”
Remember when Jesus gave a story of the two sons? Father asked his kid to do something. One son said he would, but didn’t. One son said he would not, but did. Interesting, which one did that Father’s will? The one who actually did it. I wonder, perhaps, if agnostics and atheists will receive “Well done, thy good and faithful servant” while being bewildered like those in Matthew 25 by effectively saying “Err, what? What do you mean” and then, perhaps, Jesus will say “Truly, you were doing the will of Him, even though you did not know it.” and maybe perhaps many Christian’s (not all, of course) will hear “Why didn’t you do what I told you to do?”
In the great judgement, I think many of us are going to be surprised. That doesn’t except me, either… I may very well fail the test… But if I fail the test, at least I know I gave it my best and did what I thought was right.
I don’t interpret Barber’s comment as implying that the Bible speaks nowhere of anyone being righteous. I’d expect any informed Calvinist would know that the Scriptures speak of people who are righteous & how to easily harmonize that with the doctrine of Total Depravity ( T in TULIP).
Also I’m not sure how your remarks re Mary, Joseph & Jesus relate to what Barber said or what “teach[ing]” you are referring to.
BTW, I’d question his remark about how children come to exhibit such vile behaviour. Would a child who hasn’t seen such wickedness act it out unless he/she had seen it somewhere?
I can’t say if Barber’s opinions in that quote represent what most Calvinists believe. His argument certainly doesn’t prove what he claims it does. Though it does correctly point out that even children can exhibit a murderous spirit, which was the reason i included the quote, as it relates to the passage about humans being swift to shed blood.
Can I love someone who has hurt me…
Non believers hurt the believers every day.
If my daughter or son has turned from God,
will I throw them in the trash heap…
How do we deal with the retched in our eyes…
Are they somehow below me, because I at this time know Jesus?
That’s one way of looking at it, i.e. try to explain away Paul’s plain statement by appeal to “context”. And then read into Gen.4:26 that men calling on the Lord can do so apart from the grace of God.
OTOH you could accept what Paul plainly says with the understanding, that once God’s grace moves a man to seek God, that man can of his own free will choice recieve or reject that offer of grace.
Of course the Calvinist will say that such grace is irresistible (the I in TULIP) & libertarian free will is unbiblical, an illusion & a myth.
So are there any who “understand” or “seek after God” without God first giving them understanding & grace to seek Him? Both Calvinists and many non Calvinists would answer “no, none”. Both believe what Paul plainly states.
I don’t know what leads you to believe i’ve ever ignored context.
As to condemnation, i’m quite sure that other Christian denominations besides those labelled Calvinist are aware of & use this word. It doesn’t take a belief in total depravity to condemn man’s sinful nature, inclinations or ways. Though in a cult, perhaps, one could pretend sin doesn’t exist . Like Christian Science, for example?
Arguably a belief in total depravity leads to less condemnation of oneself & others & more peace, since man is utterly helpless to effect his own salvation, unlike in libertarian free will co-op salvation (50% God & 50% man) wherein man is his own saviour, & it all depends upon him, after what Christ has done. Glory be to me. I made the right choices, so i’m better than others, who are sinners, said the Pharisee.
You are amazing… “context” DOESN’T “explain away” — it helps CLARIFY; might I say to the irritation of such bogus doctrines like your “total depravity” which Paul did NOT teach! Calvin taught it, but Jesus did not, neither did Paul nor any other apostles.
Who’s reading into the text? I simply quoted the text that contradicts your notion, pure and simple — and what makes the difference? CONTEXT… the very thing you keep running from.
