Obviously, yet evidently missing the point, that people often erroneously use or cite or merely claim “context” to explain away plain passages of Scripture. Which, BTW, is all you’ve done, i.e. make allegations, without providing any analysis of actual contexts that support your claims. As the saying goes, talk is cheap.
Again an allegation with nothing but hot air to back it up. You provided no context, let alone analysis of it, with your out of context quotes. The ball is in your court, with the burden of proof, to back up your claims.
So, for “context”… WHAT did Jesus’ words above you quoted say about the moral position of your so-called “person without God in their life” — zip, zero and zilch! Like many of your posts it’s just padding not saying anything relevant to the point at hand.
As to your “Isa.64:6a” quote… THIS verse speaks of the people of God (vs. 8) who AGAIN have been caught in sin. It is NOT speaking to the global or universal nature of humankind — THAT is your own errant and imposed presupposition.
And let me repeat from further up the page, which you couldn’t answer either so you just ignored…
Jeremiah’s… “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” is NOT a global statement supposedly indicative of humanity in his natural state… he was referencing the wicked heart of Judah in her sin and the due consequences of such (vss 1, 5 etc).
Jesus was a man, and as such, Mary and Joseph were not teaching Him that He was totally depraved or telling Him that there was no good in Him. Jesus didn’t teach this either. It is a destructive doctrine.
Origen, The way I see it, a belief in total depravity gives people an excuse for their bad behavior. Taking Warner’s example of a child that steals another’s toy, as a parent you would not say, 'Well, little Billie simply can’t help himself because he was born depraved and has no good in him whatsoever." Humans have the capacity to sin, but we also have the capacity to do good as well, just as God told Cain “if you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.”
Jesus’ words in Mt.22:37-38 speak to the moral standard in the moral law. It’s not good enough to be superficially, pharisaicly, and outwardly better than other sinners as in the OP. God looks upon, sees completely & judges the heart. He’s not impressed with animal sacrifices or “goody two shoes”.
Re Isaiah 64:6, my post didn’t say anything about man’s nature. Instead, i was addressing the OP. The word “us” includes the prophet Isaiah himself & the people of Israel. By the same principle neither would the self-righteousnesses of the heathen nations without God be a beautiful sight in the Lord’s eyes. What kind of righteousness does the unbelieving sinner of the OP have? Not God’s righteousness by believing in Christ while he lives “under sin” & without faith in God (Romans chapters 1 to 5).
Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things & desperately wicked. If i said “the brain is a computer” who would limit this only to geniuses like Einstein?
Jer.17:9b “who can know it”(the heart)? Answer: “I the Lord” (v.10).
I don’t know of anyone claiming to be a Christian who thought Jesus was a sinner. That is blasphemy. OTOH if we’re talking about a real sinner like Hitler, what is it that you think was good in him?
Rom.7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Do we see all Calvinists making “excuses for their bad behaviour”, saying the “devil made me do it” as they all rush off to the bars, nightclubs & brothels? Or are Calvinists much like other Christian denominations as regards how holy they live? Or are they perhaps a bit more holy in their lifestyle than, say, Catholics, Orthodox & Anglicans?
You are simply equivocating because you have no rational response… IF the context was about Einstein then “the brain is a computer” scenario would make perfect sense and the LOGIC would be CLEAR that said “the brain is a computer” started and stopped with Einstein. Lesson… Jeremiah’s words were spoken of and applicable TO Israel — therein is the CONTEXT of that verse which you and other Calvinists errantly apply across all and sundry.
IF you weren’t referencing “man’s nature” in general THEN WHY bother to defer to the likes of “the heathen nations”? You just continue to contradict yourself. And given you apparently make no claim against the broader nature of man THEN WHY ignore the context of the text in question which is Israel and NOT “the heathen nations”. IOW… why quote or appeal to Isa 64 at all?
Paidion’s OP made no reference to the likes of being “superficially, pharisaicly, outwardly better than other sinners” — you’re just making this stuff up.
As to your TD link, here’s the first verse quoted…
It’s an assumption on your part that THIS allegedly speaks of total depravity, and this is typical of so much on that page… eisegesis! That said men had… “sought out many schemes” simply means they’d erred, BUT there is NO mention made of some supposed total depravity, i.e., it’s imaginary. The notion of total depravity is totally bogus and nothing but the veneer of self-righteousness.
The likes of ‘total depravity’ is nothing but man-made religiosity. TD only works with the notion that grace is dependent on God alone… YES grace originates and initiates in God, but its attaining is multifaceted, sometimes benevolently given beyond and quite apart from any human response (Lk 6:35) and yet for others a direct endowment initiated by the heart attitude of man (Gen 6:8). It is NOT one size fits all but… “what saith the context?!”
When I try to comprehend total depravity, I also read John Calvin in theology, Arthur Schopenhauer in philosophy (i.e. here’s a short YouTube video on him - youtu.be/q0zmfNx7OM4) and put on some Blues music (i.e. a sample song - youtu.be/1gDhR1R3S0s). It helps to cheer me up.
And here is an interesting article or 2, I’ve found today:
It’s not only Calvinists who believe Jeremiah just as it is written. Look up some Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican & other Protestant commentaries.
Your attempt to explain it away with “context” is like what eternal conscious torment advocates do with passages like 1 Cor.15:22, i.e. it’s only about Christians, the context of the letter is to the church, etc, blah, blah, blah.
As i said the point was self-righteousness, not the “nature” of man, let alone total depravity, a topic that hadn’t even been mentioned yet at that point in this thread.
Obviously that’s the type of person he described.
That’s your assumption, not mine. I never said anything about that verse.
I haven’t even stated anywhere in this thread or site that i believe in Total Depravity.
If you want to try to refute Total Depravity you’ll need to deal with the entire body of evidence, not cherry pick.
What how embarrassing — YOU’RE the one who introduced that whole foolish notion… just do a simple word-search in this thread on “depravity/depraved” proves this.
So here’s your chance at an honest answer Origen… do you believe in ‘total depravity’
. To me, it’s basically the same thing, blaming someone else for your sins.
Total depravity means just what it implies, total=entirely, completely, absolutely, just as Warner Barber states “The vengeance of even a child shows us that man does not have any good in him whatsoever.”
You recently were a participant in the following thread.
I’d like you to consider crazy-glueing the following quotes to your PC & forehead:
“Are you saying total depravity is inharmonious with Universal Restoration? If so, then i disagree. Likewise 63% who voted in this threads’ poll think Calvinism & Universalism are compatible.”
“I’m undecided whether Calvinistic Universalism or Libertarian freewill (LFW) Universalism is the truth. It’s one or the other. I’d probably lean to the former.”
“I think i would probably accept that TULI or TULIP without the P.”
Looking forward to seeing what imaginary things you’ll read into those quotes, & the erroneous assumptions you’ll conclude from such fantasies. Hopefully you don’t use the same method with the Scriptures, though i’m afraid you do.
Why don’t you start a thread titled “The gospel truth according to davo” or “Davo’s creedal statement according to the Scriptures”? Would it include all prophesy is already fulfilled, Christ has already returned & won’t be coming again, there are no future resurrections, no post mortem punishment, everyone is already saved, even serial killers, so we might as well all go live it up & part-ay!
What would be the relevance of libertarian free will in such a theology? Or evangelism? Or opposing Calvinism?
Does anyone believe man is not a sinner and not depraved?
Origen;
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm
Being a sinner doesn’t equate to being depraved IMO. Depraved is a state of being whereas a sinner can be someone who occasionally sins which would include everyone except one.
My understanding of the Calvinist idea of total depravity is that man is incapable of looking for God without God first regenerating him. Man can pursue many things greater then himself like patriotism to country, supporting various causes, supporting sports teams, so why couldn’t he pursue the greatest cause of all which is God?
“No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit. Every time we begin to pray to Jesus it is the Holy Spirit who draws us on the way of prayer by his prevenient grace.”[10]
"The Second Council of Orange of 529 stated that faith, though a free act, resulted even in its beginnings from the grace of God, enlightening the human mind and enabling belief.[11] In canon 23 it is said that God prepares our wills that they may desire the good. Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin… but He (God) first inspires us with faith and love of Him, through no preceding merit on our part.”[12]
“Prevenient grace (from the Latin “to come before”) was discussed in the fifth chapter of the sixth session of the Council of Trent (1545-1563) which used the phrase: “a Dei per dominum Christum Iesum praeveniente gratia” (rendered “a predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ”).[13] Those who turned from God by sins are disposed by God’s grace to turn back and become justified by freely assenting to that grace.”
— YOU’RE the one who introduced that whole foolish notion… just do a simple word-search in this thread on “depravity/depraved” proves this. 
Send davo my pm