The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Theology
#63

I’m no authority on Calvinism, & they often seem reluctant to share what they believe, but according to the following:

“Calvinists have their own doctrine of prevenient grace, which they identify with the act of regeneration and which is immediately and necessarily followed by faith.[14]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenien … c_theology

"When Orthodox Christians refer to Fallen Nature they are not saying that human nature has become evil in itself. Human nature is still formed in the image of God; we are still God’s creation, and God has never created anything evil. But our fallen nature remains open to evil intents and actions. It is sometimes said that we are “inclined to sin”; that is, we find some sinful things attractive. It is the nature of temptation to make sinful things seem the more attractive, and it is the fallen nature of humans that seeks or succumbs to the attraction. Orthodox Christians reject the Augustinian position that the descendants of Adam and Eve are actually guilty of the original sin of their ancestors.[97] But just as any species begets its own kind, so fallen humans beget fallen humans, and from the beginning of our existence we lie open to sinning by our own choice.

Since the fall of man, then, it has been mankind’s dilemma that no human can restore his nature to union with God’s grace; it was necessary for God to effect another change in human nature."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

#64

Suffice it to say, man is made of more than just flesh and blood, as Genesis 2:7 states "“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” I believe that the Spirit of God is in the core of every human being, and whether we like it or not, we cannot be rid of Him.

#65

I did introduce an interesting article or 2, earlier in this thread:

Three Arguments Against Total Depravity
An Interesting Problem with Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity

I do understand total depravity, as the Calvinist sites - Got Questions and CARM - present it. I just don’t agree with it.

Perhaps this video, can answer your question - in 15 seconds: youtu.be/WrjwaqZfjIY. :laughing:

#66

Excellent — straightforward — rational. :sunglasses:

#68

I was raised with the theology that if it wasn’t God’s will to give a poor starving child some food, then it was is evil and sinful. Of course, I wish I was smart enough at the time to say “How would it NOT be God’s will to do something like that?” Crazy, I tell you.

#69

Generally speaking actions are neither good or evil. They’re neutral. The Satan & demon possessed can do just about any action a Christian can.

The more significant question is, what is the motive & spirit behind actions. For God looks on the heart.

For example, in one of the Clint Eastwood Westerns he (Blondie) is dying of thirst in the desert. Chico offers him water from a purely selfish motive, i.e. filthy lucre.

There are many other evil motives as to why the wicked do outwardly superficial (pharisaical) good deeds. Motives they may not be aware of because they lack knowledge of what’s in their own hearts & are decieved.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’

Mt.7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Jn.3:19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Jn.7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me, because I testify that its works are evil.

Mt.12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Eph.2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Eph.5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.

Col.1:21 You, being in past times alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works,

Isa.9:17 Therefore the Lord does not take pleasure in their young men, Nor does He have pity on their orphans or their widows; For every one of them is godless and an evildoer, And every mouth is speaking foolishness

Jn.2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

#70

I can generally agree with the following, which is as far as i’ve read so far:

“Paul writes that without Christ we are “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20) and “dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). The Bible certainly teaches that human beings are depraved – we inherit a sinful nature that tempts us to do evil. We have all committed sin and therefore stand guilty before God, deserving of death (Romans 6:23). “There are none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). Without Christ, we are depraved sinners in need of a savior.”

#71

qaz and Gabe, of course it’s not evil to do good works. To teach so is a religious aberration.

Giving water to the thirsty or food to the hungry is just the opposite of evil doing; it is about the greatest GOOD doing that a person can do. And it has been done by many good disciples of Christ as well as by many atheists. Some atheists have also undergone death itself in order to save the lives of others! Jesus said, “Greater love has no one than this: that to lay down his life for his friends.”

However, having said this, I want to make clear that the disciple of Christ has a special power to do good—the enabling grace of God, made available by the sacrifice of Christ. Therefore the disciple is in a much better position to live a CONSISTENTLY good life.

The apostle Paul wrote to Titus:

#72

Thanks Don… You said

Can you elaborate on this? :wink:

#73

What makes generally speaking neutral action either good or evil is the motivation behind such actions. Jesus shows that so-called non-believers are rightfully recompensed when they fulfill a righteous action…

Clearly, those rendering assistance are NOT believers but are favourably motivated by or towards those who are, and in so doing reflect a righteous motivation that Jesus says will not fall short of reward.

So, can a non-believer live a moral life? — unquestionably!!

#74

In these scriptures a single act is spoken of, not an entire moral or immoral life. The word “unbeliever” is not mentioned.

God’s power can certainly move an unbeliever to do a single act of kindness for someone who “belongs to Christ”.

Also by God’s power a donkey spoke in human language. That didn’t change the donkeys’ nature from being totally donkey.

“Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam…” (Num.22:28)

"30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

This says the donkey spoke, not that the Lord spoke through the donkey. Do you conclude donkeys can speak in human language when they choose to exercise their free will?

#75

lhim.org/blog/2014/02/06/three-a … depravity/

Total Depravity advocates would say that the doctrine is not a new one based on old gnosticism, but an even older one based on the Bible.

As to the claim that none of the church fathers believed in it, a total of only 5 quotes are given from 5 ECF. These are alleged English renderings that fail to provide any book or chapter references, & are without any Greek text to see if they are correctly translated.

Total Depravity advocates base their belief on the God-inspired Scriptures. Not on the traditions of fallible fallen errant humans such as the “church fathers”, who contradict each other.

Total Depravity advocates do not believe Scripture is trumped by human opinion. They do not agree with those Christians who think human Traditions are equal to, or above, God’s Scriptures or the ultimate interpreter of them.

Inasmuch as the Reformed(Calvinist) churches, as the Reformation, are Sola Scriptura & Sola Fide [not sola pope or sola tradition] they don’t care what the Church Fathers teach, rejecting teachings based on Tradition alone - such as transubstantiation, purgatory, mariology, LFW, etc - as being unbiblical. Clearly the Church Fathers of the first 500 years had many strange, and unscriptural, ideas. And it only got worse after that.

gotquestions.org/Mariolatry.html
u-s-history.com/pages/h1136.html
puritanboard.com/threads/ea … ion.37047/
christianbook.com/gospel-ac … escription

According to a certain English translation(s) a number of individuals called Early Church Fathers appear to have believed in Libertarian Free Will (LFW). Whether these translations are accurate, how interpolated the originals are, or influenced by the doctrine of reserve, is difficult to say.
Pretending to believe in LFW would have been a perfect candidate for the doctrine of reserve. And it is well known that many of the ECF
writings have been altered. tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd4.html

Secondly, there are Total Depravity advocates who disagree with the historical claims quoted above:

apuritansmind.com/arminianis … h-fathers/

John Gill, Calvinism & early church fathers, with Greek texts in his “Cause of God and Truth":
books.google.ca/books?id=Dsw8AA … &q&f=false
grace-ebooks.com/library/John%20 … %20The.pdf
books.google.ca/books?id=6UlBQw … &q&f=false

Thirdly, that “man has the power to choose good or evil” does not affirm libertarian free will any more than dogs who have the power to choose between trees to piss on, which is controlled by their nature, heredity, & the forces of their environment.

Fourth, the author makes a number of other comments in his “Argument #1”, but doesn’t document evidence for any of them either.

#76

Single or multiple acts of kindness typically reflect the goodness that lays within (Mt 12:35)… AND such a simple heart-felt act was in nowise cavalierly dismissed by Jesus (unlike yourself) to the point where he himself said such an act would be rewarded. The fact that such as “whoever gives…” was NOT a believer is OBVIOUS from Jesus’ OWN WORDS. It’s easier to take Jesus at his word… he knew what he was talking about, no contest!

#77

“Total Depravity advocates” are also “fallible fallen errant humans” who “base their belief” on their own INTERPRETATION of “the God-inspired Scriptures.”

#78

So well put. When everything finally ends,… God will let us know - what was a “correct” and “incorrect”, interpretation of scripture. For now, I say pick something that’s either popular or “resonates with you” - and run with it. :laughing:

But - for someone who “apparently” doesn’t believe in total depravity… He or she, is going out of their way - to “sell” it. :laughing:

#79

As I see it, this is the very essence of salvation—to be delivered from our wrongdoing:
As the angel said to Joseph:

Now I know that “His people” may at that time have directly referred to Israel. However, Jesus did save many Israelites of the day from their sins. But “His people” soon included Gentiles who entrusted themselves to Him, also, since:

So everyone who “believes” (that is entrusts himself to Jesus), everyone who “calls upon Him” becomes on of “His people.”

Each of them is in the process of being saved or delivered from their SIN (not merely delivered from hell as so many believe). This is a life-long process, a process in which the non-Christian is uninvolved. The latter can do various works of righteousness from time to time, by his own choice.
The Christian can appropriate by faith the enabling grace of God (made available by Christ’s sacrificial death and resurrection). Thus the apostle Paul writes to Titus 2:11-15

Notice Paul wrote that:

  1. The grace of God has appeared for the salvation of ALL people.
  2. That grace TRAINS us to renounce impiety and worldly passions.
  3. That grace TRAINS us to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age.
  4. Jesus gave Himself to redeem us from all lawlessness.
  5. Jesus gave Himself to purify for Himself a people of His own who are ZEALOUS for good works.

If these could come about through self-effort and choice alone without being trained by the enabling grace of God, then Jesus’ death would have been unnecessary. I cannot explain why Jesus’ death provides this enabling grace, but Paul states unequivocally that it does.

#80

:smiley: Good one, Don!

#82

I gave the Calvinist Got Questions site response - via another forum thread:

Should a Christian have hobbies?

Let’s examine a sentence, on what they say:

Now I like to watch Zombie, Science Fiction, superhero and horror, TV shows and movies. But I also talk part in an Anglican, conservative charismatic church. And watch Christian TV shows, like the Roman Catholic EWTN station, or TV evangelist Joel Osteen. I would say I am in balance, between hobbies and Christian activities.

#83

Mk 9:41 says they do the deed “in My name”, that is, in Jesus name. In Phil.2:9-11 that is associated with salvation, therefore belief, not unbelief.

#84

Yes, but Sola Scriptura advocates are going to the Source, not blindly trusting pontiffs or others who may not even be using Scripture to arrive at their conclusions. Who relies on Scripture more, your average Calvinist or your average Catholic?