The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can we know Jesus without the Bible

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

I have been thinking about this awhile. None of the NT was written when Jesus was on earth. At various times in history there was no Bible available to people. Some places still have no Bible in their language. Many people have no mature understanding of the Bible. The gospel is trusting in Jesus and we don’t need the Bible to do that do we?? God is love and wants us to know Him and Jesus relationally, so why has there been this constant focus on having to read and study the Bible in order to know Jesus??

Robert

#2

I think so. When one comes into faith union with love and beauty he has found Christ. For me spirituality is about becoming a more humble and compassionate person.

#3

In my opinion, for many, the Bible has replaced God and Jesus. This is known as “bibliolatry”.

My mother-in-law lived for awhile in northern Manitoba. She once mentioned having visited a person in a northern community where Bibles were unknown. She talked to a woman about Jesus, and described Him. The woman said, she knew about Him since He had appeared to some of the people in that community.

Having said this, I would say that although one can experience Jesus without having read the Bible, one can learn much about his character by reading the memoirs of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John).

#4

This is true for the majority of Christian history. Before the printing press, only the wealthy owned any scriptural texts.

Instead of reading scriptural texts, Christians would go to Church and hear the scriptures chanted within the liturgy, thus helping to ensure that the scriptures were not misunderstood in a heretical manner by the congregation.

#5

Thanks Michael, Paidion & Geoffrey. The 2 greatest commandments are to love God & love others & ourselves. Jesus said we would worship Him in spirit and truth. Love is the pinnacle of all there is so it would seem mental assent,doctrinal knowledge and propositional statements would not be the best way to know Jesus, rather relationally through love. Since we are all unique creations of God, no one has the exact same fingerprints, makes sense we would all have a unique understanding of Jesus relationally . The Bible would serve well as a way to deal with possible heresy as you said Geoffrey. I come from a church background which has sought to restore the early church. Of course there was no universal agreement on all matters of faith and practice even amongst the apostles. Loving is both the most simple and yet most difficult thing there is for us humans, no wonder we fight over doctrine and theology and try to be the ones who are right and have the truth Why did Adam & Eve have to screw everything up??/ grrrrrrrrrrrrrr lol

Robert

#6

The Quakers - especially those who believe in silent meetings - believe Christ appears as the inner light, to guide all that listen.

#7

There’s no doubt that human beings have always had ‘religious’ experiences. In other words, experiences to which they give the name of ‘experiencing God’ or ‘ultimate reality’ or ‘the cloud of unknowing’ etc etc etc.

The name they give to the experience, the way they interpret the experience, is usually a function of their belief system, the cultural expectations, emotional background and many other factors. I’ve written here before about my friend Angie, a young woman who told me she never experienced God in the ‘regular’ church service, but afterwards, at the young people’s service, they cranked up the music, played a more ‘christian rock’ style, and man could she feel the presence of God.
She interpreted her ‘high’ from the loud fast music to be the presence of God.After all, she was in a ‘religious’ service, so it had to be God, right? Had she been at a club, with a band playing loud and fast, and had the exact same feeling, she would not interpret her ‘high’ in the same way. It would be, like, what a great band, dude.:slight_smile:

So circumstances and expectations can both mold and ‘explain’ our experiences. One of the great benefits of knowing the scriptures is being able to develop our ability to interpret situations and test experiences for authenticity.

Sorry if this is too off-thread.

#8

There’s no doubt that human beings have always had ‘religious’ experiences. In other words, experiences to which they give the name of ‘experiencing God’ or ‘ultimate reality’ or ‘the cloud of unknowing’ etc etc etc.

The name they give to the experience, the way they interpret the experience, is usually a function of their belief system, the cultural expectations, emotional background and many other factors. I’ve written here before about my friend Angie, a young woman who told me she never experienced God in the ‘regular’ church service, but afterwards, at the young people’s service, they cranked up the music, played a more ‘christian rock’ style, and man could she feel the presence of God.
She interpreted her ‘high’ from the loud fast music to be the presence of God.After all, she was in a ‘religious’ service, so it had to be God, right? Had she been at a club, with a band playing loud and fast, and had the exact same feeling, she would not interpret her ‘high’ in the same way. It would be, like, what a great band, dude.:slight_smile:

So circumstances and expectations can both mold and ‘explain’ our experiences. One of the great benefits of knowing the scriptures is being able to develop our ability to interpret situations and test experiences for authenticity.

Sorry if this is too off-thread.

#9

I don’t think it is off-topic dave. It shows how context helps define experience. I was thinking how did Adam & Eve know who God was??? There is no explanation of this. Did God actually communicate with language spoken so they heard with their ears?? How did the ANE cultures develop their myths of creation and how the gods functined and interacted with the world??? Jesus name is actually God with us so without the Bible, would people who have never heard the name Jesus know Him in an intuitional spiritual way?? Like the native americans and believing in the great spirit?? Just thinking out loud here.

Robert

#10

I find this a really interesting topic. I have often wondered if this is what Paul was talking about in Romans 2:14

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.”

#11

I do believe that we can know God without the bible. In addition to Romans 2:14 that Michael.PF pointed out, I think we should know God without the bible as Paul says in Romans 1:19-20 "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.

Genesis 1:11 says this: “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to it’s kind, whose seed is in itself on the earth.”
Genesis 1:24 says “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to it’s kind.”
And Genesis 1:25 says “Let us make man in our image according to our likeness.”
If everything on earth carries the seed of itself according to it’s kind and bears fruit according to it’s kind, and God made man according to His likeness, then the seed of the Spirit which produces the fruit of the Spirit is already there in our hearts and minds. Given all of our mental capabilities, along with eyes and ears with which to see and hear, we should be able to figure some things out. Looking at the world around us, we can see the design, organization and beauty of it all. As we are also creators, when we see a thing created, we know that there is a creator of it. For example, we don’t come upon a house that has been built and assume that it simply put itself together. Reason tells us otherwise, and that it was made for a purpose.We also have a conscience that tells us right from wrong in a lot of cases. If not, then I think that sooner or later we should see with our eyes and feel in our hearts the results of our actions.

#12

Hi LLC- appreciate your comments,as well as everyone else. You make me think of a few more things. The passages you cited all do suggest an ability to reason out God to a certain degree. Why is it we still sin though?? There as to be something aside from intellectual knowledge because as you said, we have what we need to satisfy our intellect. I have heard that once Jesus resurrected and returned in the parousia at 70AD the old covenant system was forever abolished and sin & judgment based on the Old Covenant as well. So, we still sin,do wrong, whatever you want to call it and it has consequences, just not salvific ones. How do we know all this without the Bible?? The irony is you used scripture to talk about not needing scripture. LOL :laughing: :smiley:

Robert

#13

Robert, You caught me! :laughing: I have to say that even though I think we can still know God without the scripture, it does come in handy. We can learn a lot of things from the people that have gone before us. It is also my belief that God did not leave us alone with just our hearts and minds to figure it all out for ourselves. I think that He was there in the beginning with His word (John 1:1), teaching the first of mankind His laws, His truth, and His ways, showing them who He is so that we should not be ignorant of it.

#14

LLC- that was a fun gotcha!! :smiling_imp: haha I think you are right the Bible is a very useful tool to help know God & jesus. However, since so many have existed, lived a long life and never saw a Bible, i would have to say it is not absolutely needed. Also, the catholic church for many years held the Bible hostage from the people. Jesus is the Word and we are told to believe in Him not a book that contains stories about Him

I hope more weigh in here and we can discuss at length the ways in which we are to know Jesus apart from the Bible Always enjoy your comments LLC :smiley:

#15

Do you really mean ‘apart from’ or do you mean ‘in addition to’? Because, apart from, we have no idea if we are experiencing the real Jesus Christ. How would we test that experience? I’m the slightest bit puzzled by the core question here. Help! :smiley:

#16

Hi DaveB- my core question is apart from and it gets at your question. Is the real Jesus only able to be known via the Bible?? If so, then all those who have ever lived with never seeing a Bible or being able to read one ever… are they just out of luck?? You nailed down one of the core issues my friend :slight_smile:

#17

Luck? We don’t need no stinking luck!! (I hope you get the movie reference) :smiley:

We can only know about Jesus if we are told about him, right? Either verbally or in a written form. ‘Verbally’ would include an angelic proclamation.
The closer either of those methods comes to the truth as revealed in the bible, the better we will know about Jesus. To the extent those methods stray from the truth of scripture, the faultier will be our knowledge. None of us has perfect knowledge, of course, but clearly some distortions of the truth are more harmful to our understanding of God and His loving will for the world. If an angel appears to someone and announces for instance, that Jesus was a liar, and we believe and act on it, the results could be disastrous. How do we know that He is not a liar? The bible tells us so.

But the opening post question is 'Can we KNOW (not know about) Jesus without the bible. I read it this way “Is it possible for a person to have a spiritual experience of Jesus Christ, a relational experience, without having heard about Him in one of the forms verbal or written”. That is, direct, unmediated revelation?

That is totally up to Him. I think it would be rare. A book that all in itself cast me out of Calvinism to these more hopeful shores, called “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination” by Lorraine Boettner, answered the question of why billions in the world have not heard the name of Jesus preached in truth and power, and are therefore to (according to the Reformed) be damned - the answer is “because God wants it that way”. To show his awful Power, etc etc etc. What a crock.

Most obvious, at least to me, is that the sovereign Love of God, His wisdom and Providential care of the universe(s) and each of His creatures, is unceasingly turned toward each man woman child at every moment of every day. I’m not going to wander into the question of suffering right now. Noone is abandoned, no one is lost. each heart is known fully. God in His goodness and severity will work out the issue of bringing true knowledge of His Son to each one, even after death.

#18

Coming from the perspective that Jesus was the Spirit of God in the flesh, then should we follow the things that God has put in our own hearts and minds concerning Him, I think we would know both God and Jesus.

#19

LLC- The question is though- how would we know we knew Him?? The ane culture was filled with similar stories contained in the Bible, mystery religions plentiful as well. Would Gods revelation to our spirit have some essentila way to make us know it was definitely Him?? I think a key thing is knowing by experience as opposed to intellectual assent. Does God provide a way to know Him and Jesus by experience when the Bible is either unavailable or unable to be understood?? I hope some others will jump in as we consider all this Good thoughts LLC :sunglasses: :slight_smile:

#20

I understand the problem, Robert. When I have related to an agnostic a revelation which I believe God gave me, he asked, “How do you know it was God?” But to explain it to him intellectually would be an even greater problem. It would be analogous to attempting to explain a television set to a primitive man from a remote jungle. You have experienced a television set; he hasn’t.