Can we love yet dislike?

[pilgrim]

Pilgrim,

Thanks for your clarifications. It’s hard to keep up with the semantical distinctions that seem to be going on here. But I sympathize with your view that the ideal way to love is to sense a “liking” for someone. Brennan Manning a said that he would say to God, “I know you love me, that’s your job. But do you like me?” (I think in an important sense the answer is yes, even when God hated his human actions) I do wonder if some are expressing wariness about “trying to like someone” and how this would be achieved. But your suggestion of “trying to see the goodness (and worth) hidden deep inside them” (or underneath the obviously perverse things about them) is actually the approach that is helpful to me. It’s also easier for me to “like” someone despite their deeds and errors, when I recognize the pressures and hurts that may have strongly shaped what they do and think.

Yes! That’s it. I really appreciate your input Bob.
In addition, I also think that when I view someone with all their weaknesses and faults, in a mystical way, what I am seeing is myself. The human condition is universal. I tend to think that when I dislike someone (or some trait and believe me, it happens to me just as often as to anyone else) there is an element of judgement: (an unsaid ‘Thank God I’m not like that’). Well,truth is, I am looking at myself under different circumstances.

I do sympathize with those who don’t want to let an ongoing failure to much like someone postpone the priority of acting toward them in a loving way that seeks their welfare. But I assume that you agree with doing that even as we also seek to develop a heart with actual affection toward them.

Definitely.

God bless

[sass]

Hi Pilgrim. Thank you for the encouragement. I have been wondering on and off if I am doing the right thing. I didn’t think you said anything that I felt was trivializing my predicament. I appreciate your kind display of sensitivity though. You are right when you say we SHOULD strive to find something to like about a person, it probably wouldn’t be that hard to do if we were willing to look past what we DON’T like. But, THAT IS REALLLLY HARD.

[WE_ARE_ALL_BROTHERS]

I’m glad that my original question has sparked so much discussion. The reason I mentioned it was because, like Jason, I find myself saying it all the time. I cannot honestly say that I am fond of the person of everyone. And I dare say, that a number of people will not be fond of mine (of which I take little offense). And indeed, there are others who seem entirely hostile (largely for our different beliefs, which always define our person and actions) that I am particularly not fond of. Yet I can, have and will continue to extend agape love towards them, and insofar as it has depended on me, have sought our reconcilliation. I don’t really see this as unChristian at all. For I think this is exactly what God has done and is doing. I have no doubt that God greatly dislikes much of my character which is entrenched in sin. Fortunately God does love me, and insofar as it depends on him he has and will continue to seek the deification of my nature. Loving those you like is easy. Loving those you dislike? That’s divine.

[pilgrim]

For I think this is exactly what God has done and is doing. I have no doubt that God greatly dislikes much of my character which is entrenched in sin. Fortunately God does love me,

But that’s not the question is it? ( I mean, whether you have any character traits or faults which God may dislike).
The important question is whether you can answer in the affirmative:
“I have no doubt that God (greatly) dislikes ME!”

Why did you shy away from saying that? Not deliberately I’m sure, but nevertheless we are supposed to emulate Jesus.
If it is Godly for me to dislike but love, then it is true that God (perhaps) dislikes Cindy, Sonia, Andrew, John (yes that’s me Cindy ). But do we really believe that? I don’t think so, which is why I should try to like the soul who irritates me at times.
It is what Jesus does.
So, to the 12 who voted yes I ask, do you believe that Jesus (possibly) dislikes you? -(and no, I don’t mean anything about you, I mean YOU!)

youtube.com/watch?v=FrAt_EPY2LQ

[james.goetz]

My view is that we cannot perfectly love and completely dislike somebody, but due to imperfections we can love and dislike while we need to understand that we should never eternally settle for the dislike.

[fmichaeldw]

My view is that we cannot perfectly love and completely dislike somebody, but due to imperfections we can love and dislike while we need to understand that we should never eternally settle for the dislike.

Amen

Michael in Barcelona

[WE_ARE_ALL_BROTHERS]

For I think this is exactly what God has done and is doing. I have no doubt that God greatly dislikes much of my character which is entrenched in sin. Fortunately God does love me,

But that’s not the question is it? ( I mean, whether you have any character traits or faults which God may dislike).
The important question is whether you can answer in the affirmative:
“I have no doubt that God (greatly) dislikes ME!”

Why did you shy away from saying that? Not deliberately I’m sure, but nevertheless we are supposed to emulate Jesus.
If it is Godly for me to dislike but love, then it is true that God (perhaps) dislikes Cindy, Sonia, Andrew, John (yes that’s me Cindy ). But do we really believe that? I don’t think so, which is why I should try to like the soul who irritates me at times.
It is what Jesus does.

John, that’s exactly the answer I gave.

And indeed, there are others who seem entirely hostile (largely for our different beliefs, which always define our person and actions) that I am particularly not fond of. Yet I can, have and will continue to extend agape love towards them, and insofar as it has depended on me, have sought our reconcilliation. I don’t really see this as unChristian at all. For I think this is exactly what God has done and is doing.

I was entirely hostile to God, holding vastly different beliefs that defined my person and actions, and yet God still extended reconciliation. If my person is defined by my beliefs and actions (which I think to a large extent it is), then God did dislike my person (if “character” does not reflect that accurately, then my mistake). That’s precisely why God sought to do something about changing my person. Was I ever hated by God? No. Was I ever disliked by God? Certainly.

I think you’re conflating “like” and “love”. Being fond of and content with someone, is vastly different to pursuing their best interests.

[pilgrim]

Hi Andrew

John, that’s exactly the answer I gave.

My bad. But it’s at least interesting that you didn’t later say “God dislike(s/d) me”.
I mean, your point (if valid) surely means that you are now a different person? And I don’t mean that in the normal usage of the term, I mean, you must be saying that you are literally not the person that you were, in the way that I am not my colleague Rebecca who, at this moment is sitting near me.
You are also saying that God disliked you until you had changed into another person. That is precisely what I believe is dangerous about this belief. It puts the onus on the person I dislike to change, not myself.

I was entirely hostile to God, holding vastly different beliefs that defined my person and actions, and yet God still extended reconciliation.

I do not believe in total depravity in the way you are using it here. Also, God did more than 'extend reconciliation, He Loved me.

If my person is defined by my beliefs and actions (which I think to a large extent it is),

“to a large extent” is not good enough IMO.

then God did dislike my person

Is there a scripture to support this?

(if “character” does not reflect that accurately, then my mistake).

I think we’re in agreement that this is the key to your position.

That’s precisely why God sought to do something about changing my person.

I have to agree that scripture talks of ‘a new creation’ etc. but if we go down that line, then surely we, as Jesus body, should dislike everyone who is not regenerate, and like everyone who is. I think you’ll agree that that is a TERRIFYING thought.

Was I ever hated by God? No. Was I ever disliked by God? Certainly.

Wow! That’s strong. Obviously I disagree at this moment in time.

I think you’re conflating “like” and “love”.

I think genuine agape Love is a subset of like.

Being fond of and content with someone,

I can be fond of without being absolutely content. I have affection towards people with whom I would not consider contentment.

is vastly different to pursuing their best interests.

It is agape Love which is vastly more than just pursuing their best interests.
If we consider 1Cor 13: Love is patient, Love is kind, love ‘doesn’t see the faults of the other’ (my para).
Seriously, read 1 Cor 13 and tell me that the Love described does not include affection towards and liking.

I’d love (no pun) to know your perspective on how Paul describes Love in 1Cor 13.

God bless you Andrew. We are all seeking to be the body of Christ.

[pilgrim]

I may be mistaken, but I don’t remember anyone in the ‘yes’ camp giving any scriptures to support their view.

These may be worth considering whilst we ask, does agape love necessarily involve an emotional input, ie ‘like’ or ‘affection’?:

1. Love does not dishonour others (1 Cor 13)

2. is not easily angered

3. keeps no record of wrongs
   Can Paul really be describing the sort of love that dislikes at the same time? Or is he listing what we all feel when we have that emotional affection towards?

4. Love each other with **genuine affection **(Romans 12 10)
   How can this scripture be so easily sidestepped?

5. make every effort to supplement your faith with …brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. (2 Peter 1)

• notice how affection (liking) comes before genuine love. Doesn’t this support the idea that love is a subset of liking?

I remain shocked at the thought of imagining that it is Godly to dislike a person and that, at the same time, I might convince myself that I am loving them. I wonder how many marriages have failed because of this philosophy?
Is there even the slightest support for it in scripture?

So far, it seems to have lead us to the view that God dislikes (has no affection for) all people who are not yet ‘born again’ and gives us permission to do the same. This is despite scripture clearly showing the opposite (ie Jesus weeping for His wayward chicks).

Isn’t it true that, naturally speaking, liking is allied with loving and is implicit in love? So, why are there no scriptures to support the ‘yes’ camp?

The christian path would be so, so much easier if God was happy for me to dislike people whilst I convince myself that I am still loving them (because I may ‘give my body to be burned’ for them).
Isn’t it just a cop-out? Wishful thinking?

Many of my non-Christian friends are put off Christianity because of the haughty arrogance they perceive in the ‘God-squad’. I thought that might be chiefly due to their belief in ECT and it’s ramifications.
How silly I was to think that was all (or even the major part).
How would they feel if they knew the truth and is it possible that they can see-through us to the truth, that we are actively disliking them whilst contenting ourselves that we do really love them because we might take some ‘righteous’ actions towards them. The whole idea makes me nauseaous.

My experience is that, if I have a natural (and perhaps strong) aversion towards someone, then as I get to know them more and more, and as I am allowed to see their humanity in more depth, then I develop an understanding for them and an affection for them just as they are.
I have never experienced one single exception to this rule. I am convinced that if I were to live with any member of this board for some short while, and they remained exactly as they are, then a deep affection would grow in my heart. It is true that we are all the same under the skin, a mixed bag trying to our best.

God help us all.

[Paidion]

Someone has pointed out that “love” eventually led to “like”. I wholly concur. Usually soon after you serve someone you don’t like (or even dislike), you begin to like the person.

Love is not an emotion. Love is an act of service. Liking is a feeling, an emotion. Emotions come and go. We cannot make them come. However, when we act in love by serving another, somehow your action brings about liking.

Paul taught that the older women in the church were to encourage the younger women to LIKE their husbands and children. How would the older women do this? Did they gather the younger ones together and lecture them on the subject? I don’t think that would help at all! Rather they encouraged the younger women how to serve their husbands and children — maybe how to mend a man’s clothes, how to encourage their children in the activities they enjoy, etc. When the younger women learned to really serve their husbands and children, they would begin to like them more.

The very next sentence suggests the kind of thing the older women were to do:

…to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited. (Titus 2:5)

[pilgrim]

Someone has pointed out that “love” eventually led to “like”. I wholly concur.

That’s an interesting idea but that’s all it is. Just an idea. No scriptures.

Usually soon after you serve someone you don’t like (or even dislike), you begin to like the person.

I’ve no problem with that. I’m pleased that you seem to acknowledge how important it is that we like someone.

Love is not an emotion. Love is an act of service.

I disagree and so do the dictionaries. Love includes emotion and action.

Liking is a feeling, an emotion.

I agree.

Emotions come and go.

Not with God.

We cannot make them come. However, when we act in love by serving another, somehow your action brings about liking.

So we CAN make them come then???

Paul taught that the older women in the church were to encourage the younger women to LIKE their husbands and children. How would the older women do this? Did they gather the younger ones together and lecture them on the subject? I don’t think that would help at all! Rather they encouraged the younger women how to serve their husbands and children — maybe how to mend a man’s clothes, how to encourage their children in the activities they enjoy, etc.

Some of this is scripture, some conjecture.

When the younger women learned to really serve their husbands and children, they would begin to like them more.

Conjecture.

The very next sentence suggests the kind of thing the older women were to do:
…to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited. (Titus 2:5)

Very true.

Two points:

You didn’t address the scriptures I posted. Here they are:

I may be mistaken, but I don’t remember anyone in the ‘yes’ camp giving any scriptures to support their view.

These may be worth considering whilst we ask, does agape love necessarily involve an emotional input, ie ‘like’ or ‘affection’?:

1. Love does not dishonour others (1 Cor 13)

2. is not easily angered

3. keeps no record of wrongs
   Can Paul really be describing the sort of love that dislikes at the same time? Or is he listing what we all feel when we have that emotional affection towards?

4. Love each other with genuine affection (Romans 12 10)
   How can this scripture be so easily sidestepped?

5. make every effort to supplement your faith with …brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. (2 Peter 1)

• notice how affection (liking) comes before genuine love. Doesn’t this support the idea that love is a subset of liking?

And point no. two:
A dictionary definition of ‘agape’ is at odds with your novel idea that Love does not include emotion:

Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē[1]) means “love” (unconditional love) in modern day Greek, such as in the term s’agapo (Σ’αγαπώ), which means “I love you”. In Ancient Greek, it often refers to a general affection or deeper sense of “true love” rather than the attraction suggested by “eros”. Agape is used in the biblical passage known as the “love chapter”, 1 Corinthians 13, and is described there and throughout the New Testament as sacrificial love. Agape is also used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one’s children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast. It can also be described as the feeling of being content or holding one in high regard. Agape was appropriated by Christians for use to express the unconditional love of God. Before agape love there was no other word to express such great love.

I repeat:

I remain shocked at the thought of imagining that it is Godly to dislike a person and that, at the same time, I might convince myself that I am loving them. I wonder how many marriages have failed because of this philosophy?
Is there even the slightest support for it in scripture?

So far, it seems to have lead us to the view that God dislikes (has no affection for) all people who are not yet ‘born again’ and gives us permission to do the same. This is despite scripture clearly showing the opposite (ie Jesus weeping for His wayward chicks).

Isn’t it true that, naturally speaking, liking is allied with loving and is implicit in love? So, why are there no scriptures to support the ‘yes’ camp?

The christian path would be so, so much easier if God was happy for me to dislike people whilst I convince myself that I am still loving them (because I may ‘give my body to be burned’ for them).
Isn’t it just a cop-out? Wishful thinking?

Many of my non-Christian friends are put off Christianity because of the haughty arrogance they perceive in the ‘God-squad’. I thought that might be chiefly due to their belief in ECT and it’s ramifications.
How silly I was to think that was all (or even the major part).
How would they feel if they knew the truth and is it possible that they can see-through us to the truth, that we are actively disliking them whilst contenting ourselves that we do really love them because we might take some ‘righteous’ actions towards them. The whole idea makes me nauseaous.

My experience is that, if I have a natural (and perhaps strong) aversion towards someone, then as I get to know them more and more, and as I am allowed to see their humanity in more depth, then I develop an understanding for them and an affection for them just as they are.
I have never experienced one single exception to this rule. I am convinced that if I were to live with any member of this board for some short while, and they remained exactly as they are, then a deep affection would grow in my heart. It is true that we are all the same under the skin, a mixed bag trying to our best.

[pilgrim]

Still not one scripture to support the idea that Godly love can include disliking.

Still no-one able to side-step the clear instruction from St Paul:

[size=150]**Love each other with genuine affection **[/size](Romans 12 10)

I wonder how many divorces have been rationalised and justified with the self-delusion “I still love him/her but I don’t like him/her”

Oh, that’s ok then.

[fmichaeldw]

Dear Pilgrim

First let me tell you I love your posts here and on other threads and learn a great deal from them.Your photo always gives me good cheer and encouragement! And I have to tell you I love Yorkshire having spent a year in Leeds, which in those days was pretty grim (1957), but more than fully compensated by wonderful people and some of the most beautiful, wild (the moors), and gentle (the dales) country-side in England. Thanks be to God!

I try to refrain from posting, preferring to read and learn from many people such as yourself on this forum, who are clearly immersed in scholarly day to day study and teaching of Christianity and its application to their lives.

Having said that, I have to confess to you saying I am one of those who voted YES!!

Christ’s commandment to love one’s enemies is scriptural evidence enough for me to vote Yes.

By voting Yes I am not saying that it is Godly to dislike a person, which is what you seem to feel the Yes vote implies .

And I do not read the question as to whether it is Godly to love yet dislike.

Can we love yet dislike?

There are non Christians who dislike me for some things I may do or believe, or for being stubborn in my views, slow to listen, difficult to accept another’s opinion, yet I know they love me and vice versa. I have some enemies through my own fault whom I love and who one day I pray will forgive me. There are people, Christians and non-Christians, who sometimes do things I dislike, but whom I love, and the feeling is probably mutual!. I would be surprised if this is not similar to many peoples experience.

Looking back over the years now I would say that, even through a number of periods of estrangement, some extending to years, whether aware of it at the time or not, I like to believe now it has been the basic scriptural principles of love that have ruled (with and without dislikes), and best described by St Paul Cor.13. Both in business where there have been very tough and unpleasant encounters with both extraordinarily likeable and unlikeable persons, and in family and social life.

And how about God, what to say to our non Christian friends? Does God love us and dislike us? I don’t think any of us on this debate are saying this, let alone believe that. Is it not that God loves us all in spite of our estrangement, sins, of actions He dislikes, and whose persistent love leads us to repent and reconciliation, that God’s love is inclusive to our non Christian friends and to those that have never known Him.

Love or like, which comes first? I would go along with what I think Jason said somewhere, perhaps on this thread: that it is love that leads us to like a person.

Hope I have not got out of my depth here, but if so I pray you and others will guide me through.

With warm affection and great respect

Michael in Barcelona

[SLJ]

Like I said before, I still think we’re dealing with semantics. To me, the following verses illustrate the idea of loving people that one dislikes:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

2Tim 2:24
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

Even the verse you posted is, to me, an example of this:

Love each other with genuine affection (Romans 12 10)

It’s not, I think, that there’s any disagreement in essentials here, it’s mostly in how we say it.

You have made the distinction between ‘liking/disliking’ the person versus ‘liking/disliking’ charactaristics of the person.

I’d say that’s probably what most of us mean when we talk about disliking a person.

I’ll give you an example from my life. There’s a little 9 year old girl that I know whom I love and have compassion for – but still dislike. She’s pushy, rude, offensive, argumentative, selfish and generally bratty. And she’s a little girl who is not much to blame for how she is – she was a neglected and malnourished drug baby from a meth lab home, cared for by siblings, adopted by an extremely kind and tenderhearted lady who overindulged her to try to make up for early years.

We invite her and her family to visit at our house fairly regularly. But she also calls me several times a week to ask if she can come over and spend the night or come play, which I occasionally allow. But a ‘no’ answer is met with various pleadings and wheedlings and attempts to extract promises of future visits. My 10yo twins literally cried when they found out I had invited her to their birthday sleep over party (though I had been telling them they were going to have to invite her). With with about ten girls in the house ranging from 7 to 12 years, every one of the multiple conflicts were centered around this girl.

But I care about this child, and I know it’s good for her to be with my family, and it’s good for her to experience the discipline and boundaries she meets when she does spend time with us – even if I find it unpleasant and inconvenient to have to deal with her. It’s also good for my kids to have to learn to be compassionate and patient toward one who has been less fortunate than they. The hear often from me, “I know she doesn’t behave very well, but we can help her learn how to be better.”

Back to semantics … the dislike my younger kids have for this child is a resentful, hateful kind of dislike. The dislike I feel for this child is different. I cannot, with any kind of honesty, say that I ‘like’ her. I do not feel pleasure as a result of her presence. But I most definitely do feel genuine affection for her and I care about her, and I desire her to grow into a better person. I look for good in her so that I can encourage her in what is right. I don’t chastise myself for ‘disliking’ her, but I do chastise myself if I find myself trying to avoid her, or saying ‘no’ to her for no other reason than a selfish desire to escape having to deal with her. In spite of my dislike, I go out of my way to do good to her and show affection and kindness toward her. I don’t want to dislike her, but her behavior has made it impossible for me to really like her.

And I must admit, after the trauma of that last party, I find I* have* been somewhat avoiding her.

I don’t think we should harbor dislike or think that dislike is a good thing – it’s just something that is. I can’t help disliking the disagreeable child, just like I can’t help feeling pain when I burn myself on the stove. But I don’t hate the child – I genuinely love her, and I do good to her and I want the best for her and I will be delighted to be able to honestly say that I like her just as soon as that becomes possible. I don’t even think about the fact that I dislike her – except to chastise myself when I find my dislike affecting my behaviour towards her.

Anyway, I still say it all comes down to what we mean and how we mean the words. I’m sure people do use it as a cop out, or an excuse, but that’s not what everyone means. And contrary to what you said above, in divorces it seems more common to me that people will say, “I still like him/her, but we’re just not in love anymore.” But that’s just my experience.

Maybe part of understanding this is understanding where we’re coming from. I was blessed to grow up with “Love your neighbor as yourself” as a primary principle of life. I’ve schooled my thoughts in that direction since I was 8 years old. I’m generally disposed to ‘like’ people. I’ll put up with a lot before I start disliking someone. So for me, ‘dislike’ is forced on me against my tendancy and desire to like everyone. I want to like people, and I can find something to like about most people. I’m disposed to excuse and forgive faults. People don’t have to earn my ‘like’ – they have to work hard for my ‘dislike.’

When you love someone, you want to be able to like them, but it’s not always possible. I will still choose to love someone even if they force me to dislike them.

Sonia

[pilgrim]

Dear Pilgrim

First let me tell you I love your posts here and on other threads and learn a great deal from them.

Pleased to meet you Michael. You’re too kind. I’m not very good at this posting thing and I’m sure I come across far more aggressive than I intend to be but I appreciate your comment.

Your photo always gives me good cheer and encouragement!

I love him and look forward to thanking him for all the joy he gave me in childhood.

And I have to tell you I love Yorkshire having spent a year in Leeds, which in those days was pretty grim (1957),

The date of my birth (in sunny Scunny).

but more than fully compensated by wonderful people and some of the most beautiful, wild (the moors), and gentle (the dales) country-side in England. Thanks be to God!

True, and having spent much of my time in Sheffield, I LOVE the peak district.

I try to refrain from posting, preferring to read and learn from many people such as yourself on this forum, who are clearly immersed in scholarly day to day study and teaching of Christianity and its application to their lives.

I wish I was. I find that I learn by posting and debating, after which the other one’s view may sow a seed which may take weeks to mature.

Having said that, I have to confess to you saying I am one of those who voted YES!!

Christ’s commandment to love one’s enemies is scriptural evidence enough for me to vote Yes.

I really cannot understand the conclusion you reach from that commandment.
Let me explain:
“Enemy” may be so for two reasons:

1. They harbour an active ill feeling towards us … or
2. We harbour an active ill-feeling towards them.

I regard the text as referencing the first of these two as I do not believe that a christian ought to have ill-feeling towards anyone.

By voting Yes I am not saying that it is Godly to dislike a person, which is what you seem to feel the Yes vote implies .

You are correct. I do believe that is what it implies.

Sorry. I am short on time so will digest the rest of your post soon.

May God bless you in your ministry Michael

[pilgrim]

There are non Christians who dislike me for some things I may do or believe, or for being stubborn in my views, slow to listen, difficult to accept another’s opinion, yet I know they love me and vice versa.

I have two problems with this statement.

1. Would it be more correct to say that they dislike some of the things you believe in (or even some of the things you do) - which is quite different to disliking YOU.
2. How do you know that they love yo with an ‘agape’ love? which is what we are talking about? I propose that either one or the other is untrue as it is impossible to do both at the same time.

I have some enemies through my own fault whom I love and who one day I pray will forgive me.

No problem with that.

There are people, Christians and non-Christians, who sometimes do things I dislike, but whom I love, and the feeling is probably mutual!. I would be surprised if this is not similar to many peoples experience.

No problem with that either.

Looking back over the years now I would say that, even through a number of periods of estrangement, some extending to years, whether aware of it at the time or not, I like to believe now it has been the basic scriptural principles of love that have ruled (with and without dislikes), and best described by St Paul Cor.13. Both in business where there have been very tough and unpleasant encounters with both extraordinarily likeable and unlikeable persons, and in family and social life.

Our love can be imperfect. We may have a faulty half-baked love. We are only human but the ideal is to love with all the passion, affection and desire of God. This includes liking until it hurts.

And how about God, what to say to our non Christian friends? Does God love us and dislike us?

Excellent question to put to all those who voted yes! For me, I can say wholeheartedly no, no no, IMPOSSIBLE!

I don’t think any of us on this debate are saying this, let alone believe that.

Let me quote you an earlier poster:
(WAAB):

If my person is defined by my beliefs and actions (which I think to a large extent it is), then God did dislike my person (if “character” does not reflect that accurately, then my mistake). That’s precisely why God sought to do something about changing my person. Was I ever hated by God? No. Was I ever disliked by God? Certainly.

Is it not that God loves us all in spite of our estrangement, sins, of actions He dislikes, and whose persistent love leads us to repent and reconciliation, that God’s love is inclusive to our non Christian friends and to those that have never known Him.

For me? YES! Jesus Likes and Loves the person whilst we were yet sinners.

Love or like, which comes first? I would go along with what I think Jason said somewhere, perhaps on this thread: that it is love that leads us to like a person.

In the sense that in some cases, an imperfect ‘love’ (which still harbours a morsel of disliking) can be the beginning of a route to a genuine Love (which must always include the feeling of affection) - but let us not deceive ourselves or be content with the first sort of imperfect (or leavened/sham) love because it is not what God has called us to.

Hope I have not got out of my depth here, but if so I pray you and others will guide me through.

Your humility enlightens me.

With warm affection and great respect

And to you also, my brother in Christ.

John aka Pilgrim

[pilgrim]

Like I said before, I still think we’re dealing with semantics.

But reading others posts, that cannot be (eg WAAB’s)

To me, the following verses illustrate the idea of loving people that one dislikes:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

WOw! Nowhere in those texts do they suggest that we dislike those who regard us as their enemies. Please see my reply to Michael (above) on this matter. The text CLEARLY indicates that it is THESE UNBELIEVERS who see us as enemies (ie wish ill upon us) not US who dislike/wish ill on them.

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

2Tim 2:24
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

Not one hint in those texts of us (christians) harbouring any dislike towards these folk.

Even the verse you posted is, to me, an example of this:

Love each other with genuine affection (Romans 12 10)

It’s not, I think, that there’s any disagreement in essentials here, it’s mostly in how we say it.

I don’t follow you here.
To me, the text clearly commands us to Love with the sort of love which includes liking. That is exactly what I have been saying is our calling from the start.

You have made the distinction between ‘liking/disliking’ the person versus ‘liking/disliking’ charactaristics of the person.
I’d say that’s probably what most of us mean when we talk about disliking a person.

The distinction is vast and it is vitally important.
It is basic parenting/teaching instruction that the one acting in loco parentis must never say the like of:
“You are a bad child” or " You naughty boy"
but must always say “What you have just done is bad” or “That was a naughty thing to do”
To the child, the distinction is IMMENSE!
Likewise our Loving heavenly father is better at parenting skills than even our greatest experts.

You are a mother Sonia. I cannot believe that you are unaware of this important distinction. It is the difference between life and death, heaven and hell.

I’ll give you an example from my life. There’s a little 9 year old girl that I know whom I love and have compassion for – but still dislike.

Are you sure that you do?

She’s pushy, rude, offensive, argumentative, selfish and generally bratty.

And why is she any of those things?

And she’s a little girl who is not much to blame for how she is – she was a neglected and malnourished drug baby from a meth lab home, cared for by siblings, adopted by an extremely kind and tenderhearted lady who overindulged her to try to make up for early years.

Then surely you dislike what this has done to her, rather than disliking her herself.
If you really, really dislike her, then I suggest that you should not be allowed to have any contact with her. (Pleae don’t get me wrong Sonia, you are a shining light on this forum and I am confident that in your heart you DO actually like the soul who is so spoiled by that dreadful background).

We invite her and her family to visit at our house fairly regularly. But she also calls me several times a week to ask if she can come over and spend the night or come play, which I occasionally allow. But a ‘no’ answer is met with various pleadings and wheedlings and attempts to extract promises of future visits. My 10yo twins literally cried when they found out I had invited her to their birthday sleep over party (though I had been telling them they were going to have to invite her). With with about ten girls in the house ranging from 7 to 12 years, every one of the multiple conflicts were centered around this girl.

We had the same problem with some cousins a while ago.

But I care about this child, and I know it’s good for her to be with my family, and it’s good for her to experience the discipline and boundaries she meets when she does spend time with us – even if I find it unpleasant and inconvenient to have to deal with her.

You mean that there is a sacrificial cost to the work you do. There is pain involved in forming her character, but that does not mean you dislike her.

It’s also good for my kids to have to learn to be compassionate and patient toward one who has been less fortunate than they. The hear often from me, “I know she doesn’t behave very well, but we can help her learn how to be better.”

Back to semantics … the dislike my younger kids have for this child is a resentful, hateful kind of dislike. The dislike I feel for this child is different. I cannot, with any kind of honesty, say that I ‘like’ her. I do not feel pleasure as a result of her presence.

I like my job, but it includes unpleasant moments.

But I most definitely do feel genuine affection for her

enough said.

and I care about her, and I desire her to grow into a better person. I look for good in her so that I can encourage her in what is right. I don’t chastise myself for ‘disliking’ her, but I do chastise myself if I find myself trying to avoid her, or saying ‘no’ to her for no other reason than a selfish desire to escape having to deal with her. In spite of my dislike, I go out of my way to do good to her and show affection and kindness toward her. I don’t want to dislike her, but her behavior has made it impossible for me to really like her.

None of us are perfect. None of us are God. But if ever I think that I have crossed the line - fromdisliking a trait to disliking the person, then I have lost the battle. I have failed in my calling.

And I must admit, after the trauma of that last party, I find I* have* been somewhat avoiding her.

I don’t even think about the fact that I dislike her – except to chastise myself when I find my dislike affecting my behaviour towards her.

It seems that you know it is wrong to dislike her but as long as she is unaware of your feelings (because they have not affected your behaviour) then you can live with it.
What I would say is that a child can pick up, in a thousand different ways, the bad feelings that we have towards them and whether we THINK they are affecting our behaviour or not, truth will out. In other words, I would worry that they could read my thoughts/heart.

Anyway, I still say it all comes down to what we mean and how we mean the words. I’m sure people do use it as a cop out, or an excuse, but that’s not what everyone means. And contrary to what you said above, in divorces it seems more common to me that people will say, “I still like him/her, but we’re just not in love anymore.”

And that quote is the ultimate cop-out.

I have just come back from a 60th birthday party where two of the guests were happy to be there as they were ‘still friends’ and ‘still liked each other very much’ but they are separated because they ‘don’t love each other any more’. They have three young children. What the F*** do they think this life is all about?

Maybe part of understanding this is understanding where we’re coming from. I was blessed to grow up with “Love your neighbor as yourself” as a primary principle of life. I’ve schooled my thoughts in that direction since I was 8 years old. I’m generally disposed to ‘like’ people. I’ll put up with a lot before I start disliking someone. So for me, ‘dislike’ is forced on me against my tendancy and desire to like everyone. I want to like people, and I can find something to like about most people. I’m disposed to excuse and forgive faults. People don’t have to earn my ‘like’ – they have to work hard for my ‘dislike.’

Likewise for me.

When you love someone, you want to be able to like them, but it’s not always possible.

I’m sorry Sonia. You’ve lost me completely with this statement.

I will still choose to love someone even if they force me to dislike them.

? Perhaps you believe that doing good to someone is ‘loving’ them? For me, doing good to someone is an essential part of loving but it is not any indication that ‘loving’ is necessarily taking place. Loving is much more than just doing good to them.

Thanks for the exchange Sonia. I appreciate it. God bless you.

[pilgrim]

P.S.

In addition to the scriptures I have already posted which, I believe, instruct us to have affection with our love (and the definition of ‘agape’ which also clearly includes feelings/emotion of affection), I think this one is relevant:

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

As far as I am concerned, the word ‘hate’ is just a stronger term/form of ‘dislike’

[Paidion]

Scriptures have been quoted which command us to love. How can we command someone to have a particular feeling? Feelings or emotions come and go. All of us have heard someone say to another, “You shouldn’t feel that way!” But such advice cannot be followed. The other person cannot control his feelings. If love is an emotion, then the command to love doesn’t make sense.

I can tell you’ve never been to Marriage Encounter, Pilgrim. Or if you have, you must have fought it all the way! For there, the couples are taught that love is a decision. It does makes sense for God to ask us to make a decision.

Furthermore, you were incorrect in suggesting by a question, that I was affirming that we can make emotions come. I do admit that my statement was not precise enough when I affirmed that somehow your action of serving those whom you dislike, brings about liking. For one could interpret that as meaning that if you serve the disliked person, this action CAUSES you do like them.
I didn’t mean causation at all. I meant that the act of serving them frequently leads to liking them.

Now Christ commanded us to love our enemies. Tell me how you obey that command from your understanding of love? Do you simply work up a fondness for those who hate you? If so, how exactly do you manage that? The whole Christian world is waiting to find out!

First let me say, that I have never denied that “love feelings” exist. I think such feelings may be a strong form of “fondness”.
But these feelings, nor any other feelings are tantamount to LOVE itself.

I also think you are quite incorrect in what you say about husband-wife relationships. It the very idea of love being an emotion which has destroyed marriages. When those “love feelings” pass away, the couple thinks they must get a divorce, and marry someone who elicits those feelings in them again — the good old Hollywood scenario upon which we were brought up! However, when each marital partner realizes that LOVE is serving the other instead of oneself, and they put it into practice then this tends to bring those feelings of affection and love which were absent, and the marriage can be restored.

You quote a lexicon to try to show that αγαπη (LOVE) is an emotion. Writers of lexicons and dictionaries can be mistaken. You and I agree that “liking” is an emotion. The Greek word for “like” is “φιλεω”. There is not a single sentence in the entire New Testament where anyone if commanded to like. So it may be presumed that the New Testament writers were quite aware that no one can be commanded to have an emotion. We cannot control our emotions. But we can control our actions, and when we do so, the appropriate emotions often follow.

When I was a young child (7-12), I had a problem with anger. A close relative who used to tease me helped to bring out my bad temper. But later in my life, I used to think of the scripture, “The anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.” Just by deliberately bringing this sentence to mind whenever I had angry feelings actually resulted in my being able to let go of those feelings and not to have them anymore. There are also things we can do in order to HAVE feelings of affection. I think the most effective one is to serve the person whom we want to begin to like.

[pilgrim]

Good morning Paidon

Scriptures have been quoted which command us to love.

I’m not sure to which scripture (or poster) you’re referring. The scripture which I believe is most pertinant to our discussion is this one:
Love each other with genuine affection (Romans 12 10)

If love is an emotion, then the command to love doesn’t make sense.

Neither I nor dcriptures have suggested that ‘love is an emotion’. What I HAVE maintained all along is that perfect Godly Love (which we are called to pursue) involves emotion.

I can tell you’ve never been to Marriage Encounter, Pilgrim. Or if you have, you must have fought it all the way!

I have been on, and approved of three different marriage courses which churches were considering. I was involved in organising the alpha marriage course from Holy Trinity Brompton. They were all excellent courses.

For there, the couples are taught that love is a decision. It does makes sense for God to ask us to make a decision.

In context, they usually teach exactly what I believe and encourage, namely that serving the other can lead to love (and if you’re suggesting this ‘love’ doesn’t have positive feelings it’s, frankly, quite weird!).

Furthermore, you were incorrect in suggesting by a question, that I was affirming that we can make emotions come.

Please use the quote facility in future.
However, whatever was said (and I’ve no idea), you are contradicting yourself in this post as all can read.

I do admit that my statement was not precise enough when I affirmed that somehow your action of serving those whom you dislike, brings about liking. For one could interpret that as meaning that if you serve the disliked person, this action CAUSES you do like them.
I didn’t mean causation at all. I meant that the act of serving them frequently leads to liking them.

Being a mathematician, I am well aware of the difference between ‘correlation’ and ‘causation’.

Now Christ commanded us to love our enemies. Tell me how you obey that command from your understanding of love?

Simple.

Do you simply work up a fondness for those who hate you?

No.

If so, how exactly do you manage that? The whole Christian world is waiting to find out!

You are not a spokesperson for ‘the whole christian world’. The truth is, YOU have obviously not found out! Believe me, countless thousands have and there is only one way. Jesus said, I am the way.
So, how can you LOVE (and have positive feelings towards) those who hold you as their enemies Paidon?
You need the Spirit of Christ in your heart. The extent to which you are living in Him and He in you is the extent to which you can Love (and Like!) your enemies. This is the Gospel Paidon. I pray that God will enter your heart in a new and radical way.

First let me say, that I have never denied that “love feelings” exist. I think such feelings may be a strong form of “fondness”.
But these feelings, nor any other feelings are tantamount to LOVE itself.

And let me repeat (again and ad nauseum if necessary) that I have made clear that ‘Love’ is not synonymous with ‘like’, But agape love involves and includes a positive feeling towards, just as the dictionaries all agree.

I also think you are quite incorrect in what you say about husband-wife relationships.

Please use the quote facility Paidon.

It the very idea of love being an emotion which has destroyed marriages.

Your sentence doesn’t make any sense. All I can say is that true love has the attribute listed in 1 Cor 13 and it never destroys a marriage.

When those “love feelings” pass away, the couple thinks they must get a divorce, and marry someone who elicits those feelings in them again — the good old Hollywood scenario upon which we were brought up!

I think you must be getting muddled up with ‘love’ and ‘lust’. The feelings of agape love have absolutely nothing to do with the feelings ascosiated with ‘eros’. As a Greek student, you should have been aware of this. Society DOES muddle these up but I am surprised at you.

However, when each marital partner realizes that LOVE is serving the other instead of oneself, and they put it into practice then this tends to bring those feelings of affection and love which were absent, and the marriage can be restored.

I couldn’t agree more. Serving others (when done in the right Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ) will always lead to growth of the fruit of the Spirit: Love, Joy, Peace etc

You quote a lexicon to try to show that αγαπη (LOVE) is an emotion.

No I didn’t. Agape love is far more than an emotion.

Writers of lexicons and dictionaries can be mistaken.

What you mean is that you have to be in disagreement with writers of lexicons and dictionaries in order to hold on to your position. I find that quite sad.

You and I agree that “liking” is an emotion.

Yes.

The Greek word for “like” is “φιλεω”.

There are about 19 Greek words for love.

There is not a single sentence in the entire New Testament where anyone if commanded to like.

Try this one:
τῇ φιλαδελφίᾳ εἰς ἀλλήλους φιλόστοργοι τῇ τιμῇ ἀλλήλους προηγούμενοι
Notice the word “φιλαδελφίᾳ” which has “phileo” and “adelphos” as its root.
Here it is in English:
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;

We cannot control our emotions.

It is true that some people find it difficult.

But we can control our actions, and when we do so, the appropriate emotions often follow.

But you’re not suggesting one may help cause the other are you?

When I was a young child (7-12), I had a problem with anger. A close relative who used to tease me helped to bring out my bad temper. But later in my life, I used to think of the scripture, “The anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.” Just by deliberately bringing this sentence to mind whenever I had angry feelings actually resulted in my being able to let go of those feelings and not to have them anymore.

So you learned to control that emotion despite what you have just said: ( “We cannot control our emotions”)

There are also things we can do in order to HAVE feelings of affection.

So, once again, you now say we CAN generate the feeling of ‘Affection’

I think the most effective one is to serve the person whom we want to begin to like.

I agree that if we serve a person, in the Spirit of Christ, we will develop agape love which includes a positive emotion and appreciation for the value of the other person.

Thank you for engaging in the discussion Paidon. It has been very informative.