The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can we love yet dislike?

Interesting fact that, well into this thread I posted the same question on a non-universalist site (not even exclusively christian) and the vote, so far, is 5:3.
So it seems that non-universalists are more open to liking people universally than universalists are. I suspected that might be the case and I have my theories as to why this is.

Another text to mull over (considering that ‘disliking’ is just a more tame expression for ‘hating’):

**John 4:20 : If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? **

Apparently, as some dispute the lexicons and maintain that emotion is irrelevant to agape (which is devoid of emotion) then it is perfectly possible to ‘Love’ our brother whilst disliking/hating him.
Completely contrary to scripture but hey, who cares? -as long as it justifies what I really feel.

Dear John,

Thank you so much for your very full and thoughtful response to mine. It has given me much to think/pray about. I have yet to find how to make the quotes but here we go!

Thank you John and warmly reciprocated. Will follow on with your second post later.

Michael in Barcelona

I would like to apologise for any words I used earlier in this thread which may have been provocative.

Michael in Barcelona:

I know a few of those parishes and would love to know which one Rev Witty served in.

To all posters and those interested in the thread:
In addition to previous texts given to support my view that true Godly Love will also involve a positive emotion towards, we could consider the listing of the fruit of the Spirit:

Do not the first three all express emotion (and yes, the first is ‘agape’ love)?
Indeed if we look at the second (joy) the word is ‘chara’ derived from the word charis, which is the Greek word for ‘grace.’ AND is related to the latin word for ‘agape’ , namely ‘caritas’.
So, just as ‘Grace’ involves our emotion ‘joy’, so too does Love.

Food for thought.

We can attempt to Love and Dislike, but ultimately it is gods will for us to Love our Enemies and those who Persecute us. We only think we have free will to decide, but God is in control of everything, good and bad. When you think YOU are making a choice “you are not” it is decided by inner and outer forces, you are often times unaware of. Yet you have still not made a choice of your own free will but of Gods will. Either God is sovereign and in control of everything or he is not (in your mind). God is in all of us, some just don’t know it yet and I do mean YET. God chooses us not the other way around…I could post 10 verses and more that show God chooses us, yet we might entertain the thought of free will? that we choose God? We are incapable of ever truly loving our enemies and those that persecute us, God will finish this work in the Lake of Fire. Following his direction will avoid the great trials and tribulations in making enemies to deal with in the first place,2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

To Pilgrim

Dear John,

I hve been off the forum over past two weeks or so and sorry therefore for leaving so late finishing reply to your comments on my earlier post.

I agree, on reflection, with you that rather than friends or even relatives disliking me, it is, as you say, some things that I do that they dislike; and vice versa, it is not that I dislike some close friends or relatives for whom I have affection. It is the odd thing done by any one of them or by me that are disliked. While such actions are disliked, yet the person
Now I stand corrected this is not the same as saying that we can love and yet dislike a person.

But the love is mutual and has all the ingredients especially affection

Is that love imperfect? Yes while what you call the “morsels of dislike” persist.

Is it genuine? I would say yes conditioned to mutual recognition that we continue to work on the dislike so that they no longer distort our love, and to pray for the love never to cease but grow and mature into genuine love.

With warm affection

Michael in Barcelona

p.s. I still have to check the name of the Sheffield parish where my great great grandafther was Vicar!

This is a very interesting discussion, one to which John (Pilgrim) directed me on the current thread on Chick tracts. (Which I neither like nor love. I hate them. :laughing: )

As others have said, there are a number of linguistic complexities that need to be ironed out before we can get to the heart of the debate itself. First, the grammatical: the word ‘like’ used as a preposition, conjunction, adjective or adverb is of no relevance to this discussion. (I think you gave the example “time flies like an arrow” somewhere early on, John).

But even when used as a noun or verb, ‘like’ can be irrelevant; for example, when asking somebody the question “would you like a cup of coffee?” - they might not, even though they might actually love coffee.

Which brings us – like it or not – to the issue of semantics. There’s no getting round this one. If we do not make a proper distinction between the verbs ‘like’ and ‘love’, and agree that they describe different attitudes or behaviours, or at the very least different degrees of affection or preference, then we cannot have a debate at all.

So I will take it as read that even in questions of pleasure, preference, attitude or behaviour – which is what we’re really concerned about here – eg “I like ice cream” / “I love ice cream”, ‘like’ and ‘love’ can be and very often are used interchangeably, without doing violence to the English language.

So, having got all that pedagogy out of the way :smiley: , let us cut to the chase here: is it possible for me to act in a godly way, and love Joe or Josephine – even (some might say especially) if they are my enemies – while actively disliking them?

My answer is emphatically yes. Yes, it is perfectly possible to act in a fully Christian way, to act as Jesus did, while disliking somebody. That is my personal opinion. I will try, briefly, to explain it.

But before doing so, I would pose the question of whether we should even be talking in terms of God ‘liking’ or ‘disliking’ Josephine. Does God have ‘likes’ and ‘dislikes’? Surely not. Surely to talk in such terms is an absurd anthropomorphism. As God’s ‘attitudes’ are not influenced by His genetic inheritance, upbringing or environment, He does not, by definition, have preferences at all, in the sense that we have them. (Perhaps I should say here that the moment we use any language at all in our attempts to understand or describe God we are doomed to failure. But we must use such tools as we have …)

The Bible tells us God is love. God loves all people, good or bad, Christian or no, with an unconditional love. That is basic Christian doctrine. (Unless, of course, you are a Calvinist :smiley: ). So to say that God loves Joe and Josephine is a statement of fact. But to say God ‘likes’ Joe, but doesn’t ‘like’ Josephine, is, I humbly submit, a meaningless statement. Does God ‘like’ Joe because Joe is an affable and humorous chap whose company God enjoys? Does God ‘dislike’ Josephine because she’s a bad tempered grump who’s always moaning about her lot? Surely not. It is as absurd to talk about God liking Joe more than Josephine as it is to talk about Him ‘liking’ okra but ‘disliking’ chocolate.

Hence I would say that to describe our ‘liking’ or ‘disliking’ somebody as godly or ungodly is, strictly speaking, meaningless.

But nevertheless, is it possible for me to truly love someone, to love them with agape love – as is my explicit, bounden Christian duty – while actively disliking them? Does loving Joe somehow necessarily entail *liking *him? I would say no. And here’s why.

Whether or not I like someone or something is not primarily a matter of will. It is not something I do, it is something my personality and my body do to me. Consider this example:

I ‘like’ Joe. Joe and I have things in common. We both ‘like’ cricket. We are both mildly anti-establishment. We both abhor reality TV shows. I like Joe because he’s the sort of person whose company I enjoy.

But I don’t ‘like’ Joe’s sister Josephine. Josephine and I have lots in common. We both like cricket. We are both mildly anti-establishment. We both abhor reality TV shows. And yet Josephine is somebody whose company I don’t enjoy. Why not? I don’t know. I just don’t like her.

Why do we like the people we like? Well in one sense it’s fairly obvious. If Josephine generally behaves in a mean, obnoxious or otherwise ‘unlikeable’ way, if she’s arrogant and rude and a bully, we’re probably not going to like her very much. But she might be sweet, kind and generous, and we still might not like her very much! We might just not ‘click’ with her. And the reasons for this are so complex that I doubt we or anybody else would ever be able to untangle them.

They may be partly genetic. They may be partly environmental. They may simply be purely down to our personal preference, whatever *that *means.

But should I like Josephine? Is it my Christian duty to like Josephine? Again, I would say no. Clearly, I am not called to like Josephine’s arrogance or rudeness. But am I called to like her despite these faults? I see absolutely no reason – either scriptural or moral – why I should. Yes, as a Christian, I should love Josephine. And, as CS Lewis has pointed out, this probably means behaving towards her as if I actually did like her. Indeed, the more I love Josephine, the more I may grow to like her, despite her faults (which of course will be no worse, and may well be far less, than mine).

But as long as we accept that the words ‘like’ and ‘love’ define different attitudes and behaviours, as long as ‘like’ means ‘have a preference’ for, I can perfectly well continue to ‘like’ Joe more than I ‘like’ Josephine, without ceasing to act in a Christian way towards either of them. To annul my own personal preferences, to neutralise them in the name of love, is to deny my unique personality as a human being. If I like everybody and everything equally, I am not me anymore.

It matters not that both Joe and Josephine bear the image of God within them. I can love them both because they do. But I need not like them both because they do.

In closing, I would say that one might argue that I will never be able to truly love Josephine unless I try my best to like her. I disagree. It’s the other way around. I will only get to like Josephine by loving her, by using my will to behave in a loving way towards her.

We are commanded to love our enemies. We are not commanded to like them.

Shalom

Johnny

PS I found it blooming difficult writing this post without inadvertently using the word ‘like’, which I found both amusing and interesting. The spectrum of use and meaning of the word is so broad, so pervasive, it really does make accurate discussion and analysis very hard …

Edited to correct confusion of like and love in a couple of places. Just goes to show what I mean!

:laughing: Johnny

It’s a good post, but you still mixed up your words occasionally. I think you were using ‘love’ when you meant to use ‘like’ here and there. :wink:

Indubitably so. It’s just a good job Lennon and McCartney didn’t suffer from this sort of intermittent dysphasia. Altogether now – “All you need is like” (da da-da-da da) … :smiley: :smiley:

Hello George (Parker),

Ref Cindy’s post, clearly in the quote from your post you mean - the more you love Josephine, the more you may grow to LIKE her.

“Indeed, the more I love Josephine, the more I may grow to love her, despite her faults (which of course will be no worse, and may well be far less, than mine)”.

But what if Josephine continues to be rude to you, to bully, and generally be a real pain?

Ok, you answer:

“…by using my will to behave in a loving way towards her.”

for example as per 1 Cor 13?

And if Josephine still continues to be a most dislikeable person to you, even increasingly so?

I would guess that in that case a big extra dose of faith and hope would be needed to bolster your loving behaviour.

But if that does not alter Josephine’s behaviour?

Well perhaps that is the mystery of God’s love. Your loving behaviour to Josephine and your prayer, both of which spring from God’s love within you, connect with God’s love within Josephine and it is in God’s hands as to when and how Josephine responds, and in your faith and hope to persist. A long term excercise that started 2000 years ago and still has a long way to go!

With a cheer and a prayer!

Michael in Barcelona

Hi Michael

Thanks for your post. Yes, sorry about the mix up. I have corrected my original post. :smiley:

You ask:

and

What do I do then? I would answer that I would continue to dislike Josephine, but still do my best to love her. And as you say, I would almost certainly need a “big extra dose of faith and hope” to bolster my loving behaviour.

But then you ask:

Well, I guess I would go on disliking her. But should I really be concerning myself with altering Josephine’s behaviour at all? I can’t do that anyway - nobody except Josephine can - so shouldn’t I instead be concentrating on changing the attitudes and behaviour of the only person I can change? Which is, of course, me. And perhaps by doing that, I might find myself actually liking Josephine a bit more. Perhaps.

Actually, this argument is summed up brilliantly by CS Lewis in his short essay The Trouble With X. It’s so germane to this discussion that I think it’s worth quoting in full:

Of course, as a believer in EU, I don’t agree with Lewis’s closing paragraph. But the rest is very thought-provoking stuff.

I guess the ‘solution’ is, as you say, somehow wrapped up in the mystery of God’s love.

All the best

Johnny

I actually do agree with his final paragraph, in a way. What if hell IS really made of our own faults and shortcomings – that it is these things which must be overcome, and it is these very things that make up the sins which land us in a state of torment. And it is the torment that burns out all of this wood, hay, and stubble?

Thank you Johnny and much appreciated your quoting C S Lewis in full. Very clear and “thought provoking” as you say.

So what next with Josephine! I fully agree we must eat humble pie and do some in-house research if we are to get on together with her.

The penultimate paragraph against seeking or finding faults with others was something that my grandmother drummed into our heads as kids, never to judge others, not our business! And never to speak badly about others. After sixty years or so trying to stick to that, now I find myself as a grandpa passing this basic rule on to my grandchildren!

let’s now wait for Jason and perhaps another vote!

Affectionately,

Michael in Barcelona

Just to say that I appreciate the recent input. I have read the posts and have some thoughts which I would like to voice as soon as time permits. Cheers Johnny, Michael & Cindy

Cindy

Yes, I take your last point. But I don’t agree with Lewis that anything we can do can ever “put it out of God’s power to prevent [us] being eternally miserable”. Yes, our stubborn sinfulness will create a personal hell for us until we give in to God’s love - but His patience, His mercy and the arsenal of weapons He has at His disposal to bring us to repentance are infinite. Hence our ultimate reconciliation is assured.

Actually, I don’t think Lewis *really *and *truly *believed it himself!

Michael

Yes, thanks, look forward to it.

John

Ditto!

Cheers

Johnny

Thanks so much, Johnny for your excellent explanations! I encounter few people with whom I so much agree!

—— though I do think God has likes and dislikes. Don’t the scriptures indicate that God liked David by affirming that David was a “man after His own heart!” This couldn’t be referring to David’s behaviour since David was far from being impeccable.

Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply.

That’s good - I think we are addressing the same question (though come to different conclusions) so you have my full attention.

I’m not sure why the word ‘absurd’ is in there, and as for ‘anthropomorphism’ -I don’t think God could get any more ‘anthropomorphic’ than to become flesh and dwell amongst humans.

That does not follow in any logical way. I’m not saying it is not true, but you have given no explanation for why God might not have preferences. You have simply stated your view (so far).

I more than agree with this statement Johnny!

I disagree with the reasoning here but my disagreement happens to be irrelevant as I don’t know anybody on this thread who is suggesting that God likes one person and dislikes another. My contention has never been that God dislikes anybody. Quite the contrary, I believe that God LIKES every single human being. He may not like how we behave at present but I contend that Just as I like every colour in the rainbow and that the lack of one unique colour would be to the detrement of the whole, so every individual is unique and precious to God and each one is LIKED by God for their uniqueness - adding to the whole wonder of His creation.

The ‘hence’ is what I find very confusing. I see no evidence or logic in your previous lines that would account for this conclusion but no matter, you have already stated “there is absolutely no reason why God could not LIKE every human being” and it is my belief that He does.

Interesting:

Remembering that the question you have said that you were about to answer was “Does loving necessarily entail liking” I cannot yet see that you have addressed this other than to put forward that we have no choice who we like. Let me read on:

I am in absolute agreement that I am not called to like her faults, but WHY you suggest that this means that you are not called to like Josephine herself, I have no idea. Is it so difficult to see the difference between liking her faults and liking her as a person? I do, and if I did not, then I believe that I should change my profession.

It seems the question you were about to address has now changed into whether we have a moral duty to like. As for you seeing no scriptural reason. Might I respectfully suggest you re-read this thread as I have given ample scriptural support for having affection toward each other and I have had NO scriptural defense for the opposite position.

This is just repeating your position and then adding that you believe that we MIGHT actually have some control over our liking as time passes. (It interests me why you would think it of benefit to eventually like Josephine if it is not of a christian calling but I don’t particularly want to get into this area yet because I am still looking for support of your foundational position).

I would say ‘like’ means ‘have affection towards’ rather than ‘preference’ which seems to need an uneccessary comparison with some other thing less-liked.
Are you suggesting that “acting in a christian way” is identical to “being a christian” (and I mean ‘being’ in the most profound way) ? Because that is how it seems to come across to me and perhaps that is the crucial area of difference between us??

-It’s called crucifixion of the flesh, but let’s be clear - I can like each individual for different reasons and in different ways without any loss of my uniqueness in Christ. I like mint-choc-chip and I like cheese & onion crisps (no I’m not going to translate for Uncle Sam) but they are very, very different.

Not true in the way you probably mean. As I say, we can all be unique and we can cherish each other’s uniqueness LIKING it as well as loving it.

Yes, I know that this is your position but I fail to see where you have given support for it.

You have inserted the idea of ‘trying’ in there. I do not support a ‘works’ based process in this context.

(Why you feel it important that you LIKE her is beyond me considering your stated position.
But, apparently you DO believe that we have some control of our emotions by works. I’m not so sure but either way it does not affect my position.

This is simply begging the question.
The question remains as to whether Godly Love involves liking. If it DOES, then the command also does.

Thanks Johnny.
I want to post my own thoughts rather than just reply to yours but I may not get chance for two days.

God bless

Point 1:

Can we firstly ensure that we are not addressing different questions.
For me, this entire discussion is about whether a Perfect Godly Love for a person should ultimately always include a positive emotional component (ie ‘affection’) towards that person.

Point 2:

I think we all agree that this Love involves action but it seems that some on this thread are happy to conclude that ‘continuing dutiful actions’ summarise ‘Love’ comprehensively and completely.
The mindset seems to be that if I take actions of welfare then I Love.

I disagree with this mindset.

Now, Johnny is a better wordsmith than I will ever be and he was absolutely accurate in describing this sort of a love as a duty (another word could have been obligation).
I concur that if I am working towards the welfare of a person whom I dislike, then I am involved in a duty and I might also add that this ‘duty’ would be a burdensome obligation. (When I say that I concur, I have to admit that it involved considerable imagination on my part).

Point 3 (three scenarios):

With regard to the concept of Loving (a person) whilst Disliking (that person)
I must thank Johnny for clarifying this thought for me:
I see only three scenarios:

a) The most horrrifying concept
I will love the person I dislike in the hope that, in time or eternity, that person will change and become a person who is likeable to me.
I cannot think of anything more alien to the pilgrim’s path than this concept. I believe that this idea has been hinted at on this thread but it implies that the reason for ‘disharmony’ (and I can think of no better word for the ‘dislike’ or ‘jarring’ than ‘disharmony’) that the culpability for the disharmony between the two souls lies with the other person.

b) The ‘salvation by works’ concept
I will love the person I dislike in the hope that, in time or eternity, I will change into a person who is capable of liking him/her.
Remembering that for the majority of partakers on this thread love is a work it seems that by this difficult (even burdensome) effort on my part, I may hope to gain ‘shalom’, peace and contentment, right relationship, ‘fair-togetherness’ or whatever one might call it but just as a rose by any other name doth smell as sweet, ans as sure as eggs is eggs, it is salvation in its fullest meaning.
I don’t think that I have ever been presented with a better description of ‘salvation by works’ than this concept.

c) The eternal Limbo concept
I will love the person I dislike with no reason to expect that situation to change either in time or eternity.
I am not confident that this is Johnny’s view but it was certainly something in one of Johnny’s posts that conjured up this hideous scenario in my mind. Perhaps it was that there seemed to be a complete absence of the idea that there might be anything wrong in liking some folk and disliking others. That this was a perfectly acceptable state and that if there was nothing wrong (whatsoever) WITH THIS SITUATION IN THIS LIFE, THEN THERE IS NO REASON WHY THIS SITUATION MAY NOT CONTINUE INTO ETERNITY. pERHA (oh B***KS i’VE HIT THE CONTROL CAPSD AND am running out of time) perhaps in heaven we may spend considerable non-time trying to avoid those whom we dislike?

Now I am not suggesting that these three are mutually exclusive but that does not solve what I see to be a real problem. If the reality is 1/3 a) 2/3rds b) -same problems.
However, I AM at the moment considering these three to be exhaustive. Hence the problem.

I would be grateful for any replies/thoughts on these scenarios.

Finally, I want to point out that I do not see a problem in that ‘Liking’ is not within our own will power or strength etc.
Neither is salvation. Neither is aionian life. Neither is becoming a new creation. The only thing that can produce such fruit is a work of the Spirit.
As a teacher I must have taught many thousands of students in my career. I can honestly say that I cannot remember ONE who I disliked. Yes I got angry at times, yes some made me irritated, frustrated, saddened, weary, - indeed the whole gamut of emotions but I still LIKED the soul, like me the fellow traveller, the incompetent, the impatient, the learner, the ‘world in a grain of sand’. Also the same goes for my peers and my ‘superiors’.
(Truth pause: To be honest, one soul DOES spring to mind. In my 33+ years in the profession I can think of one young gentleman who, I believe, was a psychopath. I have to be honest and say that I DID find it difficult to like him but I see that as MY problem not his and I pray that God will forgive me.) Please also know that I am FULLY aware of the difference between ‘like’ and ‘love’. I am insistent that young minds would see through the tutor whom is only ‘doing good’ as an erksome obligation just as a knife cuts through warm butter. No! The young charge HAS to be aware that the one in loco parentis not only ‘loves’ (in my opposers sense of the word) but also ‘likes’. It is not an optional extra. It is a vital necessity.
From my perspective every single human being on this planet enhances creation and is unique with his own special gifts and contributions. They are a seed of the Divine. How many of us have had a difficult time with a person and then, out of the blue, they drop their mask, let their humanity show, let their defenses drop, they allow us to see their REAL selves often very well hidden but still alive. What a JOY that is! That is the REAL person and that is the person who I would defy anybody to dislike. Everything else was just a front. A sham.

I still cannot believe that there are only three people on this forum who understand and agree with what I am saying.
Is there anyone out there who agrees with me or am I alone?

God bless

P.S. If anyone knows how to change a paragraph in CAPS to ‘lower-case’ by a simple button press please let me know.
xx

Well, there after reading Johnny and John (Pilgrim) I find myself with only three things to say - Amen Amen with thanks and praise, thirdly in addition to works/attitude as per 1 Cor 13, you are so right Pilgrim to remind us of AFFECTION.

now awaiting with great expectations for Jason’s massive research and report!

Affectionately to all

michael in barcelona

I think all or nearly all understand what you are saying. It’s just that most of us disagree.

Hmmmm…http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/hmmm.gif
Haven’t you just indicated that there are three who agree?