Dear Pilgrim John and All on this thread,
last night in one of my posts to you John, I suggested a re-read of Jason’s extensive post from that of 27th May, but I shoud hasten to add I am not in any way excluding so many other similar very clear postson this thread such as for example from We are All Brothers quoted below:
Amen Amen, We are All Brothers
Michael in Barcelona
…and just a few posts back on this page, the exchange between Dick and Paidion!
With affectionate love to you John and all brothers/sisters!
Michael in barcelona
Hi Michael
I still have other posters to reply to and need more time but perhaps you could address this point (with which you agree):
Why talk about disliking something belonging to me (ie I possess a character) and yet loving the actual ME.
You see, I can actually agree that God dislikes many things of mine but not that he dislikes me.
Unless you /WAAB can actually say:
Then I do not think the comment is relevant.
Can you agree with that last quote? If not, then I fail to see how you can count yourself amongst the 80%.
If you had a wayward child, is it possible to say that you actually dislike your own child or just his/her behaviour?
More later
God bless
Thanks dear John and look forward to your “more later”!!
Meanwhile I think your question needs some clarification as to the context and authorship of the quotes in your post, before I can attempt an answer. Whatever the context, my guess is that you would find the answers in the posts that I have suggested re-reading.
Blessings
Michael in Barcelona
All I have done is taken the quote from your post and suggested a more relevant re-write.
If you do not wish to answer, that is fine by me. As for re-reading this thread, I have done so more than once and I cannot find the answer to the question above. However, at least that one is easily solved - if you are confident it is there, then please quote it.
I do get discouraged by members (not yourself) putting words in another’s mouth but not actually quoting. It is far too easy to either contort what another has said or to speak falsely on another’s behalf (again, not yourself).I too could say that I guess you would find my answers to your points earlier in the thread but I don’t think that is helpful and so I will refrain from saying any such thing.
I am happy to answer any question you ask of me, if you prefer not to reciprocate, that is fine but I hope you’ll forgive me if I concentrate on other posters.
God bless you my brother in Christ.
Hi Dick
Thank you for joining in this discussion. I value your input. As for the above, I think that there are some here (and I may be wrong about this) who would feel more comfortable if the difference were only a matter of semantics. As for me, I cannot see it that way but I believe that I must re-assure you on one point straight away:
Another brother-in-Christ wrote:
Again the first problem arises because the poster has put words into my mouth without being able to quote me. Love is not just an emotion and I have never suggested anything of the sort. My contention (and the contention of this thread) is that agape love must contain a positive emotional component. I hope you can see how different that is (even if you disagree).
Notice three more things about this brother’s input:
I think that we must be very careful not to add to a definition which might take the concept further than is necessary.
In this context (ie that of liking a person) I mean it in the way a 3yr old child might mean it. There is an affection towards.
Well, you’ve certainly brought an intensity to your word ‘dislike’ but do you really think it needs to be as strong as that in order to be called ‘dislike’?
And when you hope for them and act with goodwill towards them I am sure that you are doing a good thing but do you think that God dislikes them? { -and I don’t mean dislikes their behaviour nor components of their character nor anything else they possess but do you think God actually dislikes their very essence?}
Are you saying that you recognise a certain person to be ‘manipulative’, ‘destructive’, ‘self-seeking’ and yet you believe that even sub-consciously you will not be guilty of the tendency to imagine yourself a little better than him?
God bless
Pilgrim
Absolutely superb example of Godly Love Dick. Thank you!
Can we recognise the bearer of the Divine image and still allow ourselves to harbour negative emotions to that which has been created a child of God? Personally I think not.
From what you have told me of Etty (and I must look her up) there seem to be two shocking differences between me and her:
What an amazing person and an example to us all.
Hi Pilgrim 
Nice to hear from you old chum. I think we are really close on agreeing on so much here (adn we don’t have to agree no everything anyway - the silent words of the heart are more important than the mumblings of the mouth). It’s almost down to a case of listening to the spaces between the words when we discuss such a ‘hard to deinfe’ topic (but it doesn’t mean that the effort to try and express these things in words is not laudable).
Regarding my use of ‘like’, well that’s how I use the word ‘like’ – and I think a child’s natural affection is an expression of delight (well it is in a lot of children – I wouldn’t want to idealist them too much, but agree with the general principle). Yes a lot of children find it easy to like just about everybody in this way and in a sense they are our teachers. AS the Jewish Talmud says “The world endures only because of the breath of School children”. But this sort of innocent trust needs protecting in the world of experience because it can be so easily abused (see what I have to say later about discernment – and tell me what you think)
I don’t think God dislikes anyone in their essence – no matter how depraved or wicked their actions. God loves every person in their true God bearing essence and his redemptive love ever strives to bring out this essence of creative, generative and loving virtue in each person – no matter how long this takes. I am fond of quoting the Wisdom of Solomon on this –
For you love all things that exist,
And detest none of the things that you have made,
For you would not have made anything if you had hated it.
How would anything have endured if you had not willed it?
Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved?
You spare all things for they are yours,
O Lord, you who love all things.
For your immortal spirit is in all things.
(The Wisdom of Solomon 11, 12.1)
In the Eastern liturgy of the harrowing of hell God says to imprisoned Adam –“Come out, my image! My likeness!”
Regarding your fair and searching question -
Are you saying that you recognise a certain person to be ‘manipulative’, ‘destructive’, ‘self-seeking’ and yet you believe that even sub-consciously you will not be guilty of the tendency to imagine yourself a little better than him?
I have the reputation of often not begin discerning enough – of being the ingénue, the innocent abroad, the fool who rushes in where angels fear to tread 
(and I’ve been told that this is likeable in me 
). However, some of the work I’ve done in the past in community education – where you can get very exposed to trouble – has taught me to be nuanced in my desire to be a good Quaker and see ‘that of God in every person’. I think we should never go with our instant gut feeling – some people that may seem to give us a sort of allergic reaction in the psyche can actually be really fine and we just have to give them time and not get overwhelmed by any emotions of aversion (in this sense I’d agree with Piaidon – emotions are very changeable and we need to live out of a more grounded centre than our emotional reactions (negative or positive). However, there are people in life who – at this point in their journey – can operate out of resentment. On a less serious level I’ve met people who seem to want help only so they can drag you down to their level of misery – and not so that you can support them to climb out of theirs. And also more seriously I have sometimes meet individuals who operate out of pure resentment – completely filled with hatred. It’s in cases like these that loving or liking can no longer be a case of delight. It can only be to do with continuing to see the person as a bearer of God’s image, continuing to hope for them, and continuing to strive with God’s help to see their common humanity. It doesn’t mean that we should stop being cautious about a person who is filled with great negativity. It’s about not hating them – and not casting them out.
Regarding Etty (I thought she’d be a spirit friend of yours) if what Etty was speaking about is what you are speaking about, then there is no significant difference between us. She was a rare soul – she could be energised with joy and affection in the Death Camps and want to give these back to her fellow sufferers just by the sight of a wild flower in the dreary compound or a rainbow overhead. She continued to be overwhelmed by gratitude despite everything. When she saw the commandant and his face seemed like one long scar – I don’t think she felt affection for him. Rather she felt that she needed to strive to see the human being behind the scar.
I think in this striving to see there has to be a certain detachment from emotions of aversion and attraction – which some and go naturally. I think on a more ordinary level emotions can also sometimes be an impediment to loving with clarity. I’m thinking about a useful distinction that I’ve often seen drawn between sympathy and empathy. In a way the words are interchangeable – they both mean to feel with/alongside another. However some use ‘sympathy’ for acts of affective identification – ‘I know just how you feel – you poor thing’ (often spoken well-meaningly to people who are bereaved or in great distress – and sometimes unhelpfully expanded upon by the comforter who then goes on to describe at length the last time they were bereaved as opposed to just being with the bereaved person. Empathy by way of contrast entails, at least at first, a level of emotional detachment. It’s a recognition that even if once upon a time I’ve had a similar experience to you (which i can draw upon in part) I are not in this space of grief at the moment. Therefore I have acknowledge – at least to myself – that I am not in the same space now as the person I am comforting, but you will use my imagination and the intention of my listening to try and see life from where they are at the moment so I can support them. And we are all stumbling learner in the school of empathy.
Hey Pilgrim one thing I do know is that you and Johnny Parker – even thought you have your difference from time to time – are good mates. You really like each other 
.
Blessings
Dick
Dear John,
I am always happy to respond to your posts which I find very invigorating. I am really sorry that you should have thought otherwise. Anyway though you see no need to clarify the context of the above quotes, let me try to answer your questions. First in case the quotes are a re-write by you as you seem to say in your later post, I have to say the quotes are not what I meant and I do not agree with them and I don’t understand them!
But to answer your question. I have always believed that God loves all his children. I think it would be presumptious to think let alone judge that God dislikes me or any of his children. I know God loves me, is merciful to me, forgives me. God as the perfect father, me a prodigal son and not always repentant, I don’t think dislike comes into the relationship, sadness (Christ weeping for Jerusalem) suffering (Christ on the Cross) becauise God loves his children despite all our failings. I hope that answers you first questions.
If I had a wayward child, I would hope and pray that I would always love him/her. Sad, angry, disappointed, impatient with my wayward child, very likely all of these, but never dislike. Being human no doubt there would be many occasions I would be tempted to dislike, but I would hope that God would forgive me and trust Gods love for my wayward child and pray to share that and keep on loving!
Blessing love and affection to you brother!
Michael in Barcelona
Hi John
As this is such a complex and nuanced discussion, I hope you don’t mind if I address certain parts of it ‘in isolation’ as it were. My hope is that so doing will ultimately enable me – indeed all of us – to arrive at a synthesised whole which answers your original question in full.
Just as a reminder, that question is:
So, I would like if I may to pick up on one particular thing you said in explaining your ‘most horrifying concept’:
I think this is a very important point – or series of linked points, actually:
I agree. I think that the reason we dislike people is because they behave in ways which we find objectionable (they annoy us, bore us, disgust us, frighten us etc), in which case we are allowing their objectionable (to us) character traits to obscure, if not hide altogether, the image of God in them.
However, to take the extreme example again (as this helps to make the distinctions obvious, I hope) if I find Myra Hindley’s behaviour (the torture and killing of a child) deeply objectionable, is it surprising that I find it hard, if not near impossible, to ‘see past’ this behaviour to the image of God that is undoubtedly hidden within her somewhere? Is it ‘wrong’ or ‘unchristian’ of me to feel a bone-deep distaste, a disgust, for her horrible crimes? And if I do, does that stop me behaving towards her in a Christian way, from loving her as is my Christian duty?
I’d say no to both questions.
Again I agree. We should never judge another person to be worse than ourselves, for the reasons you cite (ie that we have no idea what made them that way, nor how we would have behaved had we been them). But I don’t agree that disliking that person entails judging them to be worse than ourselves. The disliking is simply our natural, instinctive and hence unchosen reaction to their behaviour. But extrapolating from this natural revulsion to a position of moral superiority is not inevitable. Many of us – me included, often, I daresay – may be guilty of it. But if we are, we are guilty not of simply disliking the person, but of setting ourselves up as morally superior to them. The dislike comes first and is not consciously willed; the spiritual pride comes second, and is.
I don’t think I agree with you on this one. I say ‘think’ because we may be getting bogged down in semantics again here, but I’m not sure God necessarily wants us to like ourselves – inasmuch as we shouldn’t like any of the rotten things we do. I often don’t like myself. And I don’t believe that it’s ungodly for me to be that way. However, I do think I should try and love myself, warts and all as I said earlier (so that I may love others). Bur for me, this loving is a willed act which recognises that although I screw up all the time, do sinful things, hurt people I love etc, I am despite all this a child of God, and that somewhere beneath the dirt there is the kernel of something wondrous and glorious – just as there is in Myra Hindley.
Hence I would say it is at least acceptable (ie not actively ungodly) for me to dislike someone, just as it is acceptable for me to dislike myself – at least some of the time.
I hope I’ve made myself clear here. As I say, this is just one small, but important, facet of a multi-faceted argument. I have more to say on your ‘most horrifying concept’, but hopefully we can tease this aspect out first.
Just in closing, I would say that a lot of this whole debate hangs on the issue of whether or not we can separate what a person does or says from the person themselves, their innate humanity if you like. But that’s for the next stage of the discussion …
All the best to you my friend
Love and peace
Johnny
Michael, it is not a matter of me “seeing no need to clarify the context of the above quotes”!
The first quote was YOURS! It was YOU who extracted it from an earlier post of WAABS. If you are now saying that you don’t know the context of the quote (which you introduced) and that the context is essential, then please give us the context from whence you took it!
The second quote is my own. It has not previously been said but I put it in quotes because I am comparing it to your quote from WAAB.
I assure you the second quote is exactly that and I do not understand why you have any doubt.
But you DID agree with the first quote and so do I.
Here is what you posted:
And your agreement:
Now, let me deal with your latest post (all quotes from yourself):
I think every single one of us agrees with that.
Good. I agree and more.
I think we all agree on that.
ABSOLUTELY! And that is my point. God does not dislike any of his human creatures -so if we are to be like Him what right do we have to dislike any of His human creatures? It is not Godly for us to do so and it is not agape love. Do you see my point dear brother?
Yes, yes, yes. Compassion and vicarious suffering are yet two more positive emotions (along with a genuine affection towards) which our heavenly father has for even the chief of sinners amongst us. Therefore, when I feel dislike of a person, then I feel that I am not reflecting the type of relationship and single-minded, whole hearted agape love which my Father shows us all.
Yes thank you. It is much appreciated and perhaps it helps us both to understand each other the better.
Precisely! And is our earthly parental love any better than our heavenly Father’s? No! So, it is my understanding that God does not dislike any child of His (and by that I mean the whole world) and I must not be satisfied myself with any dislike I feel towards another person because I should (as best I can by the power of His indwelling Spirit) emulate my Father’s Love.
Yes. Me too. And like you, I must try to not yield to temptation but clearly there are a majority here who do not see ‘disliking another human being’ as a temptation at all but are happy to do so.
And to you my brother in Christ.
Dear John,
Very happy to receive your post and so much that we both agree.
And a big thank you for sending me the whole of WAAB’s post to which, yes, I re-affirm my AMEN AMEN except to the piece that you extracted, and it was remiss of me not to have picked that out before. No excuses, though my Amen Amen came as a joyful accord on WAAB’s jubilant last words, "Loving those you dislike ? That’s divine! ".
Now am I contradicting myself and you in our exchange today? I think not. But it does bring out one point that perhaps is not so clear between us, and I apologise if I have been a bit muddled. Yes iI agree with you t is ungodly to dislike, but if we trust in God’s love for everyone (which we do) I believe that trust and faith allows us to share God’s love with each other, the Christ within us responding to the Christ in others, whether we like or are disliked or dislike, and that’s divine!. Christ showed us God’s love. .Difficult to explain. But I hope you will see what I am trying to say. When I read Jason, Dick, Johnny, WAAB, Paidon and others, the full meaning of loving yet disliking comes out loud and clear.
With love and affection to you Brother John!
Michael in Barcelona
Hi Pilgrim –
I’m new to this thread. It is a stimulating conversation – but I do think it sad that the discussion is polarised and seems to put you in the isolation chair. Because the initial question is couched in black and white - yes and no -terms and invites a vote producing statistical data it puts you in a valiant minority tradition. And the posts against the motion appear to be a cumulative argument against your position with which you courageously continue to disagree. That’s fine as long as it doesn’t hurt – and I was slightly concerned the discussion might be creating distance between you and Johnny who are actually great friends. And I also think there are a range of arguments here – some who disagree with you are actually closer to you than others; while others who have voiced agreement might not agree with you completely. Let it be said that I like you Pilgrim – I delight in you, as do others who seem to disagree with you or only partially agree with you.
I’ve been thinking again about the term ‘dislike’ – I guess it does have a rather active negative connotation; it can mean judging and condemning a person in their essence; coldly appraising them as a fool or as damnable (as opposed to hotly feeling frustrated with them). If this is what ‘dislike’ means – and if it is actually associated with hating – then yes, we cannot love and dislike.
I’ll stand by my definition of like as ‘delight’ – but perhaps my definition of dislike was off the mark. I was rather talking about a discerning caution.
Of course God does not dislike anyone – God always sees the potential in a person (Gods’ image) that he wants that person to become (God’s likeness). God seeks to save, heal and liberate each person from all that hinders them from becoming God’s likeness. And God delights, and always delights in that potential.
I think that we need to struggle against all of those impulses that stop us from becoming what we are – but we are too often discouraged and some of us fall into self hatred. Self hatred may be a stage in the journey of some people – but although I wouldn’t call in ‘ungodly’ in the end it is an illusion; because God loves us in our stumbling.
I know that you love Simone Weill. So do I – but one of the difficult things about Simone is the amount she despised herself. For example in my view she was a nice looking woman – but she made a virtue of thinking herself ugly ad disgusting. But despite her ability to loathe herself – she was still able to love. I like to think of her finding fellowship in English pubs in wartime Britain – that’s a comforting thought. Etty is a different kettle of fish – I find her easier to delight in because she didn’t hate herself (although she did struggle with depression before her time of trial came). Yes I find Etty absolutely delightful – perhaps I would accord Simone ‘great respect’ rather than fond affection.
I think the language of the heart is complex – and to divide it into like and dislike is perhaps too simple. Myra Hindley keeps cropping up here – as a notorious child killer she is obviously an emotive example – and the scapegoating impulses of the popular press turning here into a hate figure are obviously sub-Christian and indeed anti-Christian. My friend and colleague did not find it hard to get on with her. However, my friend had never heard the tapes of the little boy pleading for his life with ‘The little Drummer Boy’ playing in the background that she and Ian Brady had recorded. I know that some of the policemen on the case never fully recovered from hearing this tape. Myra was the weaker partner in this crime – Ian Brady was, and is ,the fully sociopathic ‘mastermind’. Myra converted to Catholicism while in prison and her case was taken up by Lord Longford. He was a Christian gentleman but often felt a kind of contempt for people who lacked his generosity of spirit. He was also undiscerning about Myra – he thought that Ian Brady no longer influenced her and that she was being honest about what she knew concerning where the children they had murdered were buried on the Moors. But this was not so – she was still participating in Ian Brady’s game of not letting the parents of their victims bury their children and thus have peace. Lord Longford once told one of the grieving mothers of the children that she would not go to heaven if she didn’t forgive Myra. This woman died recently – her only wish was to bury her son – and Ian Brady kept playing with her, holding out false hopes that he might disclose where the boy was buried until the end.
Well I don’t know what to make of all this – I can feel concern and pity for Myra Hindley and Ian Brady – but it’s too the victims that my heart goes out. Like Etty I can continue to look for the buried God image in them. But what I feel is not the same as affection. And anyway this is all vicarious experience – I am not the bereaved mother nor am I the traumatised policemen who had to listen to the tapes. But you get my point. I’m not God – I can only do my best. And i do think that Lord Longford was guilty of an act of moral sadism in insisting the un-consoled mother should forgive.
Forgiveness is a process that happens with different people at different paces – according to temperament and circumstances -it certainly has an emotional and imaginative content but it’s not something anyone can demand of another person.
So I think the question of loving and liking is a very difficult one – and doesn’t have any easy answer.
Now bless you Pilgrim me old chum, and warm greetings for Advent
Dick
Hi Pilgrim –
I’m new to this thread. It is a stimulating conversation – but I do think it sad that the discussion is polarised and seems to put you in the isolation chair. Because the initial question is couched in black and white - yes and no -terms and invites a vote producing statistical data it puts you in a valiant minority tradition. And the posts against the motion appear to be a cumulative argument against your position with which you courageously continue to disagree. That’s fine as long as it doesn’t hurt – and I was slightly concerned the discussion might be creating distance between you and Johnny who are actually great friends. And I also think there are a range of arguments here – some who disagree with you are actually closer to you than others; while others who have voiced agreement might not agree with you completely. Let it be said that I like you Pilgrim – I delight in you, as do others who seem to disagree with you or only partially agree with you.
I’ve been thinking again about the term ‘dislike’ – I guess it does have a rather active negative connotation; it can mean judging and condemning a person in their essence; coldly appraising them as a fool or as damnable (as opposed to hotly feeling frustrated with them). If this is what ‘dislike’ means – and if it is actually associated with hating – then yes, we cannot love and dislike.
I’ll stand by my definition of like as ‘delight’ – but perhaps my definition of dislike was off the mark. I was rather talking about a discerning caution.
Of course God does not dislike anyone – God always sees the potential in a person (Gods’ image) that he wants that person to become (God’s likeness). God seeks to save, heal and liberate each person from all that hinders them from becoming God’s likeness. And God delights, and always delights in that potential.
I think that we need to struggle against all of those impulses that stop us from becoming what we are – but we are too often discouraged and some of us fall into self hatred. Self hatred may be a stage in the journey of some people – but although I wouldn’t call in ‘ungodly’ in the end it is an illusion; because God loves us in our stumbling.
I know that you love Simone Weill. So do I – but one of the difficult things about Simone is the amount she despised herself. For example in my view she was a nice looking woman – but she made a virtue of thinking herself ugly ad disgusting. But despite her ability to loathe herself – she was still able to love. I like to think of her finding fellowship in English pubs in wartime Britain – that’s a comforting thought. Etty is a different kettle of fish – I find her easier to delight in because she didn’t hate herself (although she did struggle with depression before her time of trial came). Yes I find Etty absolutely delightful – perhaps I would accord Simone ‘great respect’ rather than fond affection.
I think the language of the heart is complex – and to divide it into like and dislike is perhaps too simple. Myra Hindley keeps cropping up here – as a notorious child killer she is obviously an emotive example – and the scapegoating impulses of the popular press turning here into a hate figure are obviously sub-Christian and indeed anti-Christian. My friend and colleague did not find it hard to get on with her. However, my friend had never heard the tapes of the little boy pleading for his life with ‘The little Drummer Boy’ playing in the background that she and Ian Brady had recorded. I know that some of the policemen on the case never fully recovered from hearing this tape. Myra was the weaker partner in this crime – Ian Brady was, and is ,the fully sociopathic ‘mastermind’. Myra converted to Catholicism while in prison and her case was taken up by Lord Longford. He was a Christian gentleman but often felt a kind of contempt for people who lacked his generosity of spirit. He was also undiscerning about Myra – he thought that Ian Brady no longer influenced her and that she was being honest about what she knew concerning where the children they had murdered were buried on the Moors. But this was not so – she was still participating in Ian Brady’s game of not letting the parents of their victims bury their children and thus have peace. Lord Longford once told one of the grieving mothers of the children that she would not go to heaven if she didn’t forgive Myra. This woman died recently – her only wish was to bury her son – and Ian Brady kept playing with her, holding out false hopes that he might disclose where the boy was buried until the end.
Well I don’t know what to make of all this – I can feel concern and pity for Myra Hindley and Ian Brady – but it’s too the victims that my heart goes out. Like Etty I can continue to look for the buried God image in them. But what I feel is not the same as affection. And anyway this is all vicarious experience – I am not the bereaved mother nor am I the traumatised policemen who had to listen to the tapes. But you get my point. I’m not God – I can only do my best. And i do think that Lord Longford was guilty of an act of moral sadism in insisting the un-consoled mother should forgive.
Forgiveness is a process that happens with different people at different paces – according to temperament and circumstances -it certainly has an emotional and imaginative content but it’s not something anyone can demand of another person.
So I think the question of loving and liking is a very difficult one – and doesn’t have any easy answer.
Now bless you Pilgrim me old chum, and warm greetings for Advent
Dick
By the way Pilgrim -
The two books I’ve read about Etty Hillesum (and I really think you may love her too) are -
‘Etty Hillesum - A Life Transformed’ by Patrick Woodhouse (a brief reflective biography and excellent introduction)
and
‘An Interrupted Life - the Diaries and Letters of Etty Hillesum’
Both are readily availbale on Amazon.
Me too. Cheers Dick.
Yes. Please do not worry. I love Johnny (and like him) and it’s great to have a different perspective from someone. I also am confident that Johnny is fine with that.
Yes. I make a great distinction between disliking something a person does, and disliking the person.
I believe that you are a teacher?? - Just like me.
It was sound advice (and for parents) never to label the charge personally (e.g. “You are a bully”) but always to label the behaviour: (e.g. “You have just behaved like a bully”). I REALLY see this as very important.
Let me ask you a question. In all your years of serving as a teacher, would you have been happy to let a charge know that you ‘dislike’ him?
I for one would not sleep if I had said such a thing. I want my students to know that I like them as unique creations and if I want them to know that, then I want it to be true rather than a lie.
I also (as opposed to some here) believe that it is possible to foster an approach to students/life in which I make it to be true. “Whatsoever things are good - think on these things”.
I do not believe that I can be genuine in telling myself that I have agape love for someone when I also harbour negative feelings towards them.
P.S. For a better (though still polarising) phrasing of the question - see the question as quoted by Johnny (below).
Amen.
Yes. You are right (IMO). I do believe that God is not happy with us ‘despising ourselves’ too much but I think that this is part of ‘dying daily’ of ‘crucifying the flesh’ and I think that, in general, there is more danger/popularity of the opposite than of the above. God loves a contrite Spirit but He also wishes us to experience His Joy.
Thank you. Interesting. I must study Etty. I often think of that verse “Blessed are the poor in Spirit…”
Again, thank you for the information. I think it wrong of Lord Longford to show less understanding to the victims than to the perpetrator.
Indeed.
Yes.
I agree that is is extremely difficult but I cannot believe that I am a true reflection of the divine (as we are all called to be) if I am harbouring negative feelings towards any soul. I see it as an imperfection in myself and even if the task is impossible I still think it is my ‘journey’ to become someone who likes as well as loves every single created being.
It is also important (and you have mentioned this) to consider those who we know and work with (or communicate with on this forum) rather than such extreme examples as Myra.
If I harbour a feeling of dislike towards, say, anyone on this forum then it is MY problem, MY imperfection and for God to work his action/unction of Grace so that I can be more like Him.
So, I still fail to see how christians can be content ‘disliking a person’ whilst telling themselves that they are ‘agape - loving them’.
And to you too Dick. xx
Hi Johnny, yes, that is the question and the conundrum.
O.K.
It is definitely NOT surprising and it IS near impossible, if not completely impossible without the grace of God enabling us to do and be what would otherwise be impossible.
It is neither wrong nor unchristian for me to feel a deep disgust of her horrible crimes - but that is not the same as me feeling disgust of HER. As for 'behaving towards her in a Christian way, I’m not sure I know what that means.
Perhaps it means behaving towards her in an identical fashion to a Christian? If so, then outwardly, no-one would know the difference. But God sees the heart and ‘Behaving as a Christian’ is not the same thing as ‘being a Christian’.
Isn’t it interesting that I described this horrible scenario as ‘salvation through works’ (which I believe to be an entirely false gospel) and, if we analyse what you have presented to me (if I understood you correctly) that is EXACTLY what you are now proposing??: ‘Behaving as a Christian’ ie ‘Doing good works which mimic genuine Christianity’??
As for the final part of your statement:
aren’t you basically proposing that agape love is absolutely nothing more than behaviour? ie the spirit in which it is done is irrelevant?
Now I know that ‘faith without works is dead’ but I think you are suggesting something well beyond this.
Interesting. Thank you Johnny - you do give me REAL food for thought.
I MUST address this last statement. I believe that it is of vital consideration, but I am pressed for time and will get back to it as soon as I can. Meanwhile, if you read this before I reply, the bold is what I will address and I am keen to know if you are 100% sure of that in bold (for all people at all times).
I would also like to reply to the latter half of your post a.s.a.p.
God bless you Johnny. May you and yours be well. Perhaps you can pop up to Scarborough some time.
xx
Just a quickie Pilgrim –
Thanks for your very pleasant post in reply (don’t mean to interrupt the flow between you and Johnny – so see this as an aside).
(I’ve mostly taught adults). Of course I’ve never harboured negative feelings towards students. Apart from any consideration of my turbulent private emotions, I’m a professional like you and one of our professional virtues is equity – or equal treatment. I’m trained din the virtue of trying to see the best in students and to get the best out of them – this is part of my duty of care. This doesn’t mean that I don’t sometimes get enormously frustrated with students, or even on occasions feel angry towards some. However, I’ve learned to exercise detachment from the ebb and flow of my emotions and hope my actions are and always will be grounded in a desire to see student fulfil their potential.
I think it is important to make a distinction between having reactive feelings of a somewhat negative nature and actually harbouring these and acting them out. For example when I’ve done certain types of classes with students who have had huge difficulties in mainstream education – so much so that mainstream teachers have refused to teach them – I’ve often got a very hard time from some in the first few sessions until trust is established, and I can’t pretend that I can always rise above being inwardly upset.
Treating students with equity/parity or whatever you want to call it means that we need to strive not to give preferential treatment to students we find easy to like – because they are funny, sweet natured, or have stimulating and creative ideas, or because they basically don’t make huge demands. However, I often reflect that those I have felt frustrated with, and angry with are actually those who, at the end of the day, I’ve cared about most and have actually made the most significant progress with me.
Regarding people on this site – well this is a debating forum and the topics are often high risk in their controversial content. I’ve got angry with people in the past here – on three occasions. I’m human – and on two of those occasions I think my anger was unwarranted and I regretted it and have said sorry. The last time I got angry – angry with certain ideas expressed by they seemed to me to promote hatred, and angry with being brick walled in conversation – I still wish I’d kept my cool a bit more, but don’t feel too uneasy about it. And I don’t think I do harbour negative feelings towards the people who expressed the views that made me angry. They’ve ebbed away,
Blessings
Dick
This topic has practically worn itself out.
However, it all boils down to the definitions of “like” and “love”. If “love” is just a more intense form of “like”, then of course it is impossible to love without liking.
But if was see the two words as having no relation to each other, but having totally different connotations, there is no problem whatever. Consider the following definitions:
“like person X” = “having a feeling of affection toward X”
“love person X” = “esteem X for who X is”
Would it be impossible to esteem someone whom you dislike?
Could you not esteem a person who does a lot to help the poor — esteem him for his service to the poor, while disliking him as a person?
God commands us to love our neighbours. If “love” were a mere emotion, how could we carry out this command? Emotions come and go, and we have little control over them.
But when we understand that “love” is action, then we realize that we can obey the command to love. We can esteem another person for who he is — whether we like him or not.
…reply to Johnny continued.
Your position seems to be that you can dislike a person without any moral judgement of that person. Forgive me if I have misunderstood you but that, as far as I can see, is your position.
I think that it is a false statement.
If we look at any/all of the examples given for disliking a person in this thread and ask whether they contain a moral aspect I think that the question is clearly answered. We can categorise them as character flaws, as virtues and vices. Let me recall some:
‘her horrible crimes’ - needs no further comment.
’ manipulative’ - obviously a vice and a moral judgement
’ boring’ - consider what this means. It means that the person is inconsiderate of others and talks about themselves. They are ‘self obsessed’ or self-centred. Even ‘boring’ is a moral judgement.
I wish I had opportunity to scan back and pick out ALL the reasons people have given for ‘dislike’. I have confidence that if they were all listed it would be clear that there is a moral aspect]
No Johnny. I strongly disagree with you when you suggest that you ‘dislike’ a person without some ‘moral superiority’ being involved, even if it is sub-conscious. IMO you cannot seperate the moral aspect as you would wish to.
I have given you two seperate points for your reply - and this is on your analysis of ONE of my three scenarios. I am keen to hear your replies to see if I have either misunderstood or am confused in my thinking.
I appreciate your input Johnny. You engage in the issues and extend/ look deeper into the intricacies.
I wish you well.