Challenge

[Revival]

all the nations judged in the OT were promised an eventual restoration.
if that’s the fruit of the Old Covenant, than how can the New Covenant, which is plainly meant to be better, actually BE better?

“oh first I’ll just promise to resurrect and restore everyone I’ve judged…and have them come to Me with joy…
and then I’ll turn around and provide a different deal…one where they have to ascribe, with little to no evidence except what I arbitrarily put in their path, and if they don’t, I will make them immortal and burn them forever. All this because they didn’t tick the right box on the ol’ What Do You Believe form.
because i’m an arbitrary, cosmic beaurocrat…oh and i have random switches of personality too, between loving and damning.
this sounds like FUN.
oh yes, and I’ll make it so that self-righteous people who pick and choose Scriptures at will to support their own loathsome opinions are in the right, and they’ll get to gloat over those liberal types who actually try to apply Scripture in their lives while they scream and writhe in endless fire forever.”
-the ECT god.

i think, going by the Bible which tells me God is the Father of those that love their enemies, i choose this one:
"31 For the LORD will not cast off for ever:

32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men."
Lamentations 3:31-33

“For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning.”
Psalms 30:5

i’d add more, but i’m at work… and also, this is like talking to a brick wall.
get a life, Revival…if you don’t agree with us and are not open to real discussion…why are you even here?

But what does the word of God say one must do to receive salvation through Jesus? What does the word of God say one must do to be presented holy, unblameable, and unreproveable unto God?

If you don’t like my answers or challenges to UR… do not leave comments. My feelings will not be hurt. Btw, I have been having real discussions with multiple people. God bless.

[pilgrim]

Don’t stop there, Aaron!

…Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

The “end” involves a period where Christ reigns until all his enemies are subjected to him.

Then death will be destroyed.

Then Christ will deliver the kingdom to his Father, and be subject to the Father.

Wow, there’s so much in that! Can you see it, Aaron?

Sonia

Hi Sonia
Another interesting point is the Greek word which has been translated ‘end’ in many translations. Study of the word shows that it is often used to mean ‘the end’ in a list or procession. ie the remainder. Paul was making such a list and I believe that it would be a correct understanding that he was saying ‘then at the tail-end we get all the rest of humanity’.
Of course, by necessity, Aaron will have to reject this possibility but his refusal to accept ‘as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive’ and his attempt to destroy the Greek by suggesting that it says ‘all in Christ shall be…’ is intellectually bereft. I have it on good authority that the Greek does not allow for this interpretation.
God bless

[Revival]

Don’t stop there, Aaron!

…Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

The “end” involves a period where Christ reigns until all his enemies are subjected to him.

Then death will be destroyed.

Then Christ will deliver the kingdom to his Father, and be subject to the Father.

Wow, there’s so much in that! Can you see it, Aaron?

Sonia
Hi Sonia
Another interesting point is the Greek word which has been translated ‘end’ in many translations. Study of the word shows that it is often used to mean ‘the end’ in a list or procession. ie the remainder. Paul was making such a list and I believe that it would be a correct understanding that he was saying ‘then at the tail-end we get all the rest of humanity’.
Of course, by necessity, Aaron will have to reject this possibility but his refusal to accept ‘as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive’ and his attempt to destroy the Greek by suggesting that it says ‘all in Christ shall be…’ is intellectually bereft. I have it on good authority that the Greek does not allow for this interpretation.
God bless

Hi pilgrim

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. Keep reading the next verse. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward** they that are Christ’s **at his coming. Then the cometh the end.

This is describing the resurrection. 1. Jesus was the first to be resurrected.(firstfruits) 2. They that are Christ’s at his coming. Notice it doesnt say** ALL** are Christ’s at his coming.

The resurrection is being described in 1Cor 15:20-23. People are being resurrected in the order described in 1 Cor 15:23 to face judgment in Rev 20:11-15…1 Cor 15:22 states that all in Adam die and all in Christ are made alive. verse 23 states not All are Christ’s and then comes the end. End of what? Grace, this age and into eternity in Rev 21:4. 1Cor 15:24-28 is describing the NJ and NE in REV 21.

Paul was making such a list and I believe that it would be a correct understanding that he was saying ‘then at the tail-end we get all the rest of humanity’.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[JeffA]

But what does the word of God say one must do to receive salvation through Jesus? What does the word of God say one must do to be presented holy, unblameable, and unreproveable unto God?

Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord.

And every knee shall bend and every tongue freely confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of God.

[AllanS]

If an Israelite (sinner) got into so much debt that he had to sell his land to another (Satan) and go into servitude (bondage to sin), his kinsman redeemer (Jesus) had the right of redemption (redeemer). If the brother in bondage accepted his offer of redemption he was no longer in servitude to his old master (no longer a slave to sin) but in servitude to his kinsman (now a slave to righteousness). If he rejected his kinsman’s offer he remained in servitude to his original master (a slave to sin) until the year of Jubilee when all captives were released and returned to their inheritance (communion with God).

Excellent thoughts, Jeff.

The slave (after being set free) will not be so quick to get into debt a second time. He will have learned a bitter lesson, but a good one. Reminds me of that scroll in Rev except this one tastes sour in the mouth but sweet to the stomach.

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

You wrote:

John 12:48 describes the standard by which we will be judged in the last day. Matt 12:36-37 Jesus says in the day of judgment. Paul also speaks in Acts 17:30-31 he has appointed a day, in which the world will be judged in righteousness.

You seem to be assuming that the “day of judgment” referred to by Jesus in Matt 12:36-37 and the “day” referred to by Paul in Acts 17:30-31 is the “last day” spoken of in John 12:48. But I don’t think it’s necessary to understand these “days” as identical. Surely you believe there have been other days in the past in which people have been judged by God (e.g., Gen 3:16-19; 4:10-13; 6:5; 7:11-24; 19:24-25; Ex 14:21-31; Num 16:28-35; Psalm 9:16; Lam 1:8; 2:22; Eze 13:5; 21:30; 22:31; John 12:31; Rom 5:16). According to Premillennialism, Christ’s coming will take place before he begins to reign for a thousand years. But the time of great tribulation and wrath that premillennialists believe will lead up to and culminate in the pre-millennial coming of Christ is referred to as a “day” of judgment as well (Isaiah 2:12-21; 13:6-11; Ezekiel 30:1-8; Joel 1:13-16; 2:1-11, 23-32; 3:14-18; Zeph 1:7-18; 2:1-3; Zech 14:1-11; Mal 4:1-5; Acts 2:20; Matt 24:36-39; 1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev 3:10-11; 6:15-17; cf. 2 Thess 2:1-4). Although I’m not a premillennialist (because I don’t believe in a literal thousand years - The “Thousand Years” of Revelation 20), it’s my view that the “day of the Lord” referred to in the above verses refers to the period of time leading up to and culminating with Christ’s coming, and is the same “day” of judgment referred to by Christ in Matt 12:36-37 (and is thus not a “post-millennial” judgment, as you seem to think).

Revival:
I do believe in the millennial reign of Christ but do not have the desire to debate it with your preterist views.

I didn’t ask you about your eschatological position because I wanted to debate preterism. I asked because (assuming you believe Christ’s “second coming” is before his millennial reign) I think there might be some inconsistencies in your view. It seems to be your position that the “last day” of which Christ speaks in John 12:48 refers to a period of time following the millennial reign of Christ, when you think the “Great White Throne Judgment” will take place. But if you’re a premillennialist, don’t you believe that the resurrection of born-again believers will take place at Christ’s coming (1 Cor 15:23), which will be sometime before the millennial reign of Christ (whether pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib)? That is, isn’t it your view that the “rapture” takes place sometime before the start of the millennium? But if that’s the case, then I’m not sure how (according to your view) the “last day” of John 12:48 can refer to a post-millennial judgment. Because in John 6 (vv. 40, 44, and 54) Christ declares that those who believe on him will be raised up on the “last day.” So if the judgment of Rev 20:11-15 takes place on the “last day,” then either this judgment takes place before the millennium (when believers will be made alive in Christ) or those who believe on Christ won’t be made alive in Christ until after the millennium (when you believe the judgment of Rev 20 takes place). If I’ve misunderstood your position, then I apologize and would appreciate clarification. But if not, then how is this not an inconsistency in your eschatological position?

I wrote:
Why do you think John had “all of humanity” in view when he spoke of “the dead, great and small” in v. 12? And do you think this judgment is to take place before or after everyone who dies in Adam has been made alive in Christ, and death has thus been abolished?

Also, do you think John had “all of humanity” in view in Rev 6:15-17 as well? Because in this passage John uses very similar language, and refers to people who were considered both “great” (i.e., those who were rich and powerful) and “small” (i.e., those who weren’t) as well:

Revival:
Because Rev 20:13 says they were judged every man according to their works.

This is simply referring to every man who, in John’s vision, was seen as being present at this judgment of “the dead.” To assume that this is “all of humanity” is, I think, to beg the question.

Do you believe everyone present at this judgment is physically dead? Or do you think only some are physically dead and others aren’t?

Revival:
Everyone who dies in Adam will not be made alive in Christ otherwise there would be no need for God to open up the book of life to see if your name is recorded.

In other words, Paul was wrong. Notice that Paul does not say, “For as in Adam all die, so also all in Christ shall be made alive,” but rather, “…so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” Whereas the former expression could perhaps be construed in a more inclusive sense (i.e., if one put a comma after “all” and “Christ”), the latter cannot be understood to include less than all who die in Adam, because the “all” who are to be made alive in Christ are the same “all” who die in Adam. This, of course, would include both those who are just and those who are unjust (Acts 24:15). So unless everyone who dies in Adam will ultimately be added to the book of life, your view that one’s name being found in the book of life determines whether one will be made alive in Christ is mistaken.

Revival:
Death will be abolished after the millennial reign in Rev 21:4.

Do you think death will be abolished after the millennial reign for believers only, unbelievers only, both or neither?

If death will be abolished after the millennial reign for born-again believers, then it must be your view that born-again believers are not going to be raised immortal in the twinkling of an eye at Christ’s coming before the millennial reign, and that there is no pre-trib (or mid-trib/post-trib) rapture of born-again believers before the millennium. Is this your view?

If death will be abolished after the millennial reign for those who died as unbelievers (or believers and unbelievers), then I see no reason why everything else John says in v. 4 shouldn’t apply to them as well. And if that’s the case, then it means God is going to wipe away every tear from the eyes of those who died in unbelief, and that these people shall never mourn, cry or be in pain anymore.

Revival:
Rev 6:15-17 is not Rev 20:11-15 but a picture of the tribulation period.

Then the “great day” of the wrath of God and of the Lamb (v. 17) refers to a judgment during the tribulation period. Is this your view?

[Revival]

You seem to be assuming that the “day of judgment” referred to by Jesus in Matt 12:36-37 and the “day” referred to by Paul in Acts 17:30-31 is the “last day” spoken of in John 12:48. But I don’t think it’s necessary to understand these “days” as identical.

Ok, we agree to disagree. No disrespect, but I’m not going to put in the time and effort to support my position of the Millennial reign of Christ, the tribulation, etc only to have it rejected due to your preterist tunnel vision. I would really like to stick to UR in any future discussion with you. God bless.

[Revival]

Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord.

and believe God raised him form the dead. Have you done this?

And every knee shall bend and every tongue freely confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of God.

Colossians 1:23 is the answer to be presented to God… holy, unblameable, and unreproveable.

[dirtboy]

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revival, how long does damnation last?

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

You wrote:

Ok, we agree to disagree. No disrespect, but I’m not going to put in the time and effort to support my position of the Millennial reign of Christ, the tribulation, etc only to have it rejected due to your preterist tunnel vision. I would really like to stick to UR in any future discussion with you. God bless.

Everything I said in my response is, I think, very much related to this particular thread, so I can’t help but see your response as a cop-out (and I’m probably not the only one). My response isn’t about preterism. I wasn’t trying to argue specifically for my brand of preterism or start a preterism vs. futurism debate. If you’ve read my response, you should know that. I was simply pointing out what I see as inconsistencies in your position, which I think undermine your objections to UR. I even asked you for clarification if I was mistaken as to what exactly you believed. You can refuse to respond to what I wrote if you want, but just know that any one of us could have responded to your “Challenge” thread (or any other thread started by you) by saying, “No disrespect, but I’m not going to put in the time and effort to support my position of UR only to have it rejected due to your ECT tunnel vision.” But did we do that? No, we took your challenges seriously and have tried to meet your objections with scriptural arguments. And that’s all I’m trying to do. The fact that my response to your challenge involves (at least in part) a closer look at your particular eschatological position should be irrelevant, because I wouldn’t be writing anything in response to you if I wasn’t trying to defend the doctrine of UR against your view.

[Revival]

Hi Aaron,

You wrote:

Ok, we agree to disagree. No disrespect, but I’m not going to put in the time and effort to support my position of the Millennial reign of Christ, the tribulation, etc only to have it rejected due to your preterist tunnel vision. I would really like to stick to UR in any future discussion with you. God bless.

Everything I said in my response is, I think, very much related to this particular thread, so I can’t help but see your response as a cop-out (and I’m probably not the only one). My response isn’t about preterism. I wasn’t trying to argue specifically for my brand of preterism or start a preterism vs. futurism debate. If you’ve read my response, you should know that. I was simply pointing out what I see as inconsistencies in your position, which I think undermine your objections to UR. I even asked you for clarification if I was mistaken as to what exactly you believed. You can refuse to respond to what I wrote if you want, but just know that any one of us could have responded to your “Challenge” thread (or any other thread started by you) by saying, “No disrespect, but I’m not going to put in the time and effort to support my position of UR only to have it rejected due to your ECT tunnel vision.” But did we do that? No, we took your challenges seriously and have tried to meet your objections with scriptural arguments. And that’s all I’m trying to do. The fact that my response to your challenge involves (at least in part) a closer look at your particular eschatological position should be irrelevant, because I wouldn’t be writing anything in response to you if I wasn’t trying to defend the doctrine of UR against your view.

Cop-out? Not at all, I just don’t have any desire to debate your position in preterism…and it looked like it was leading up to that with the shotgun questions. Fair enough, I will get back at you with your questions but it may take some time.

[Aaron]

Fair enough, I will get back at you with your questions but it may take some time.

That’s fine! No rush.

[Revival]

And shall come forth; they

that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revival, how long does damnation last?

Well considering this resurrection is unto the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15…I guess it will last as long until you show scripture support of everyone thrown into the lake of fire getting out and having their names found recorded in the book of life.

[Caroleem]

I guess it will last as long until you show scripture support of everyone thrown into the lake of fire getting out and having their names found recorded in the book of life.

Well no one gets OUT of the Lake of Fire because it’s not a real lake. It’s just the presence of God. God is a consuming fire…

[AllanS]

I guess it will last as long until you show scripture support of everyone thrown into the lake of fire getting out and having their names found recorded in the book of life.

Well no one gets OUT of the Lake of Fire because it’s not a real lake. It’s just the presence of God. God is a consuming fire…

Why would anyone want to escape Eternal Fire? Fire is energy. Energy is creative potentiality. God’s holy fire flows outwards into the darkness, filling it with every good thing.

Fire doesn’t hurt because it’s hot. It hurts because we’re cold.

[dirtboy]

And shall come forth; they

that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revival, how long does damnation last?

Well considering this resurrection is unto the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15…I guess it will last as long until you show scripture support of everyone thrown into the lake of fire getting out and having their names found recorded in the book of life.

Your “requirement” for a scripture that says people get out of the lake of fire is a strawman. If the scripture tell us that, in the end all will be redeemed, then it has provided that very answer without saying it the way you are requiring it. For example, in Colossians 1:15 ff we learn that “all things” were created by, for, and through Christ. Paul is exhaustive in his explanation of what “all things” means and it turns out that he really does mean “all things”. Then he says an amazing thing in verse 19ff, he tells us that the same “all things” will be “reconciled” to Him through Christ making peace through the blood of his cross.

Reconcile, peace, blood, cross. All things. Paul tells us in clear, straightforward terms that God reconciles his entire creation to himself through Christ! You show me a person that spends an eternity in hell and you are showing me a person who is NOT reconciled to God through Christ, having peace with him through the blood of his cross. Obviously, this punishment doesn’t last forever, otherwise Paul would be lying to us. Besides, God tells us many times in scripture that he doesn’t reject or cast off anyone forever or remain angry at man forever. It’s not in his nature or character.

[JeffA]

and believe God raised him form the dead. Have you done this?

Please refrain from evangelising me Revival - it didn’t work as Aaron37 and it didn’t work as Born Again.

[Michael_Thompson]

and believe God raised him form the dead. Have you done this?

Please refrain from evangelising me Revival - it didn’t work as Aaron37 and it didn’t work as Born Again.

Interesting… Internet forum member “reincarnation”!

[Revival]

and believe God raised him form the dead. Have you done this?

Please refrain from evangelising me Revival - it didn’t work as Aaron37 and it didn’t work as Born Again.

Not evangelizing, just asking a simple question relative to your post. You were talking about the OT jubilee. I’m asking you… have you done this standard required by God to receive the (OT jubilee) salvation through Jesus? If not, why not?

[Revival]

Revival, how long does damnation last?

Your “requirement” for a scripture that says people get out of the lake of fire is a strawman. If the scripture tell us that, in the end all will be redeemed, then it has provided that very answer without saying it the way you are requiring it. For example, in Colossians 1:15 ff we learn that “all things” were created by, for, and through Christ. Paul is exhaustive in his explanation of what “all things” means and it turns out that he really does mean “all things”. Then he says an amazing thing in verse 19ff, he tells us that the same “all things” will be “reconciled” to Him through Christ making peace through the blood of his cross.

Reconcile, peace, blood, cross. All things. Paul tells us in clear, straightforward terms that God reconciles his entire creation to himself through Christ! You show me a person that spends an eternity in hell and you are showing me a person who is NOT reconciled to God through Christ, having peace with him through the blood of his cross. Obviously, this punishment doesn’t last forever, otherwise Paul would be lying to us. Besides, God tells us many times in scripture that he doesn’t reject or cast off anyone forever or remain angry at man forever. It’s not in his nature or character.

Hi dirtboy
Why is asking for scripture support to substantiate the position UR has to take ( people actually getting out of the lake of fire) a strawman? If I were teaching something to be true would you not require me to give you actual scripture support to substantiate my position? Is it possible that your interpretation of scripture that you believe support UR be wrong?