Challenge

[Revival]

At some point, presumably after they’re thrown into the Lake of Fire (since they aligned themselves with the Beast in 19:19), we suddenly find the Kings of the Earth coming into the Holy City. What’s more, we find the nations being healed by the leaves from the Tree of Life. What’s even MORE, the nations are walking by the light of the Holy City. The ending of this book has those that were the enemies of God for the entire book, till the bitter end, finding a much happier ending than the “forever” language of the Lake would anticipate.

Now, there are other possible ways to understand this rather striking turnabout. The most common seems to be that this is a special subset of the kings and nations that weren’t hostile to God. But to insist upon that is, of course, to insist that without any discussion, John has redefined his terms. These groups are uniformly condemned and then uniformly saved. He doesn’t speak in terms of remnants, or parts, or anything like that in the relevant sections (and the fact that he does in other sections says that he could have if he wanted; he was not averse to “remnant” language).

Another possibility sometimes suggested is that these are new kings and new nations, but is that what John suggests by having them come in from outside the city (21:24)? It doesn’t seem to be. No, this seems, unless we’re willing to do some strange exegesis, to be the same group that he’s been talking about this whole time. Only this is that group reconciled at some point after the judgment and the Lake of Fire. And that can only mean one thing: that the Lake of Fire, while a terrible destination, is not the final one for those that God has set out to reconcile.

And so the end of the Book brings with it the hope of a new world, a world in which God’s purposes are fulfilled, His justice complete, His wrath spent, and His salvation brought to all. The story of Scripture–Creation, Fall, Redemption, Salvation–is brought to its intended conclusion here, and as an earlier proponent of UR wrote, “All God’s enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.”

I really do appreciate your response. I respect it. You have identified the kings of the earth in Rev 21:24 as being the same kings in the earth in Rev 19 (a move that was anticipated for it is really your only defense to hold on to UR). Where is it recorded of this reconciliation actually happening after the final judgment? If no record, why would you believe this reconciliation actually happening after the final judgment when its not found recorded in God’s word? If you can’t produce any record are you not just assuming or guessing the kings of the earth in Rev 19 are the same in Rev 21:24, yes? Is this an example of strange exegesis?

Could these kings of the earth be the same kings of the earth mentioned in Rev 1:5-6? Jesus says he is the prince of the kings of the earth. Who are these kings of the earth? they are believers in Christ. We are kings and priests in God when we accept Jesus.

Now, Rev 21:24 reads ‘And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it’

In the millennial reign of Christ all the kings of the earth will be saved. So, does it not stand to reason that these kings of the earth come from the millennial reign go through the final judgment and bring their glory and honor into the New Jerusalem?

Now to address Rev 22:2. Could the healing of the leaves be for the millennial nations that need healing?

[Michael_Thompson]

God loves all people that is why He gave us free-will to choose Him. He doesn’t force himself on anyone to violate their will. God says choose life or death. Choose life. That is why it is appointed for man to die once then comes judgement.

Aaron Really? How can we freely choose him or not when I can hardly figure out who he is? If you can prove that people actually know god in a way that they can really see his love and that he is the source of all goodness, and yet still will reject him, then I will accept that they might be lost. Good luck

[SLJ]

Sonia,
I respectfully ask you to remove your post for some of the things in those links I no longer support. Please allow this discussion to go on without the influence of my past discussion with Jason. Thank you.

Aaron, the discussions are on our site for all to see. My removing the links from this thread will not change that. And, by the way, there were quite a few people contributing to those discussions besides Jason. I’m posting those links here so people can easily find them. I feel it is only fair for people to be able to see what they’re getting themselves into in a discussion with you, and to see what ground has already been covered. There’s no point in people wasting their time re-hashing the same ineffective arguments which have already been repeatedly and thoroughly discussed. Of course they are welcome to do so anyway if they wish – it’s a good exercise anyway.

I will edit my post to let people know your beliefs are not exactly what were expressed at that time. Have your beliefs changed significantly? Would you like to provide a brief account of how your beliefs have changed, to save us some time?

Sonia

[Revival]

God loves all people that is why He gave us free-will to choose Him. He doesn’t force himself on anyone to violate their will. God says choose life or death. Choose life. That is why it is appointed for man to die once then comes judgement.

Aaron Really? How can we freely choose him or not when I can hardly figure out who he is? If you can prove that people actually know god in a way that they can really see his love and that he is the source of all goodness, and yet still will reject him, then I will accept that they might be lost. Good luck

Throughout the gospels Jesus displays God’s love in miracles, in healings,in casting out devils, in teachings and doctrine. Jesus says I have come to do the will and the works of my Father…if you seen me you have seen the Father…yet most of the religious Pharisee and Jews rejected him and wanted to kill him. There were some disciples who turned their backs on Jesus even after seeing all the miracles and healings. John 6:60-66.

[Revival]

Sonia,
I respectfully ask you to remove your post for some of the things in those links I no longer support. Please allow this discussion to go on without the influence of my past discussion with Jason. Thank you.

Aaron, the discussions are on our site for all to see. My removing the links from this thread will not change that. And, by the way, there were quite a few people contributing to those discussions besides Jason. I’m posting those links here so people can easily find them. I feel it is only fair for people to be able to see what they’re getting themselves into in a discussion with you, and to see what ground has already been covered. There’s no point in people wasting their time re-hashing the same ineffective arguments which have already been repeatedly and thoroughly discussed. Of course they are welcome to do so anyway if they wish – it’s a good exercise anyway.

I will edit my post to let people know your beliefs are not exactly what were expressed at that time. Have your beliefs changed significantly? Would you like to provide a brief account of how your beliefs have changed, to save us some time?

Sonia

[Lefein]

Aaron, also known as Revival;

Define first for us, what you mean by “Book of Life”? What is it? And what is your proof of your definition?

Secondly, regarding the postmortem re-judgement of those having already passed through the Lake of Fire, see this;

Holy Spirit and Fire!

Lefein, I have been pondering these things and believe there is even more that can be said. baptism for the believer involves being “thrown” down into the water, and then being raised out of it but your sins (figuratively of course) being left in the water baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire involves being “thrown” down in the lake of fire, where the Holy Spirit will do his sanctifying work and then being raised out of the lake but leaving sins behind John’s baptism was specifically f…

I would add that those who are not in the Book of Life, I could safely conclude are those who are “dead”; those who have not “died” to Death and Sin (lost their lives to find their living lives in Christ, who is Life and gives life in abundance). And I would also conclude that the judgement of the “Lake of Fire, which is the second death” or being thrown into it being the second death, is the final means by which dead men are made to die to Sin and Death and so come to Life, and to the full knowledge of the Truth, taking up The Way - all of which are Jesus Christ, and done by Jesus Christ.

Their second judgement that you seek, is their redemption when their knees, and their mouths join the “every knee, and every mouth” to give glory to God by their free will and love, in Spirit and in Truth (which is the only worship that God will accept as being unto his glory), confess that He is Lord and swear allegiance, unto the glory of God. The re-judgement post-judgement that you are looking for is the return of the prodigal son to the arms of his father away from the judgement of the swine troth. It is not a post-judgement judgement, it is a post-judgement reception after the redemption, purification, sanctification, correction, and in the case of this judgement, perfection of the once dead, once lost child now returned Home.

The Biblical theme is constant, in Israel’s history, and in Christ’s parables of the lost sheep, and prodigal son; as well as in Christ’s actions - “forgive them they know not what they do” and Christ’s purpose “save the world”. There is always redemption and returning after the passage of Judgement has achieved its corrective end.

Post-judgement re-judgement is therefore, not a second bringing before the throne for another court session but Biblically it is immediately expressed as redemption and returning.

<Edit: minor edits made for clarity>

[Lefein]

<Minor edits made to the above post for clarity - didn’t want it to be missed>

[WE_ARE_ALL_BROTHERS]

God loves all people that is why He gave us free-will to choose Him. He doesn’t force himself on anyone to violate their will. God says choose life or death. Choose life. That is why it is appointed for man to die once then comes judgement.

Aaron Really? How can we freely choose him or not when I can hardly figure out who he is? If you can prove that people actually know god in a way that they can really see his love and that he is the source of all goodness, and yet still will reject him, then I will accept that they might be lost. Good luck
Throughout the gospels Jesus displays God’s love in miracles, in healings,in casting out devils, in teachings and doctrine. Jesus says I have come to do the will and the works of my Father…if you seen me you have seen the Father…yet most of the religious Pharisee and Jews rejected him and wanted to kill him. There were some disciples who turned their backs on Jesus even after seeing all the miracles and healings. John 6:60-66.

I do agree with this. The Pharisees had seen and recognized the fullness of Yahweh in Yeshua and had still rejected Him. If one has no desire to yield to the divine will in this life, one will not necessarily yield in the next (this especially goes for Christians, including myself – hence why we must all endure purgatory). It is certainly conceivable that one’s heart could become so saturated in contempt for Yahweh that any further revelation would not save them; that they could eternally reject Him and become increasingly adverse to Yahweh. However, I no longer believe this is a possibility, because Yahweh (in the knowledge that His love cannot fail) has sworn to Himself that all will turn to Him and be saved.

[Revival]

Aaron, also known as Revival;

Define first for us, what you mean by “Book of Life”? What is it? And what is your proof of your definition?

Secondly, regarding the postmortem re-judgement of those having already passed through the Lake of Fire, see this;

Holy Spirit and Fire!

I would add that those who are not in the Book of Life, I could safely conclude are those who are “dead”; those who have not “died” to Death and Sin (lost their lives to find their living lives in Christ, who is Life and gives life in abundance). And I would also conclude that the judgement of the “Lake of Fire, which is the second death” or being thrown into it being the second death, is the final means by which dead men are made to die to Sin and Death and so come to Life, and to the full knowledge of the Truth, taking up The Way - all of which are Jesus Christ, and done by Jesus Christ.

Their second judgement that you seek, is their redemption when their knees, and their mouths join the “every knee, and every mouth” to give glory to God by their free will and love, in Spirit and in Truth (which is the only worship that God will accept as being unto his glory), confess that He is Lord and swear allegiance, unto the glory of God. The re-judgement post-judgement that you are looking for is the return of the prodigal son to the arms of his father away from the judgement of the swine troth. It is not a post-judgement judgement, it is a post-judgement reception after the redemption, purification, sanctification, correction, and in the case of this judgement, perfection of the once dead, once lost child now returned Home.

The Biblical theme is constant, in Israel’s history, and in Christ’s parables of the lost sheep, and prodigal son; as well as in Christ’s actions - “forgive them they know not what they do” and Christ’s purpose “save the world”. There is always redemption and returning after the passage of Judgement has achieved its corrective end.

Post-judgement re-judgement is therefore, not a second bringing before the throne for another court session but Biblically it is immediately expressed as redemption and returning.

<Edit: minor edits made for clarity>

Hi Lefein

Something had to happen to get our names written in the book of life. Who gives life? Jesus. Is it safe to assume before accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receiving life from him you don’t have it? Of course. (Eph 2:1;5) Your name is recorded in the BOL when you receive this life and accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

Books (plural) are open those you will be judged by your works and the book of life was opened…why? because this book determines your eternal destiny. If your name is found recorded you spend eternity with God…If your name is not found recorded you are thrown into the lake of fire and you are separated from God for eternity. Rev 20:11-15.

Show this final judgement in Rev 20:11-15 being reversed and recorded in scripture or UR’s foundation is built upon sinking sand and not the solid ROCK. Matt 7:24-27.

Please re-read OP for more details. God bless.

[Revival]

Yay, someone finally agrees with something I said…woot woot…we are making some progress

[Lefein]

Something had to happen to get our names written in the book of life. Who gives life? Jesus. Is it safe to assume before accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receiving life from him you don’t have it? Of course. (Eph 2:1;5) Your name is recorded in the BOL when you receive this life and accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

This life is receivable, I believe, pre and post mortem. Christ’s redemptive purpose, and the will of God the Christ is not defeated by Death - Christ defeated Death and Grave, it will not defeat him the second time, third time, or any time - hence Death does not defeat his will, neither physical death nor any sort of death. For Death to defeat The Lord’s purpose, would be for Death to defeat The Lord - an impossibility.

Books (plural) are open those you will be judged by your works and the book of life was opened…why? because this book determines your eternal destiny. If your name is found recorded you spend eternity with God…If your name is not found recorded you are thrown into the lake of fire and you are separated from God for eternity. Rev 20:11-15.

Eternal destiny? The translation is arguable. Separation from God for eternity? Arguable.

It is neither the will of God, nor is it in the power of Man to separate the loved one from the love of God who loves him. There is no separation from God, who is Love, when love is constantly, and ceaselessly being expressed upon a person, maintaining the life of the person, and drawing the person by that influence. For the will of a finite creature such as man to be capable of resisting God’s will for ever, is for that creature’s will to be overpowering the omnipotent will of God; an impossibility, the creature would be god above God - his will and being exceeding and overpowering that of The Being (God).

Show this final judgement in Rev 20:11-15 being reversed and recorded in scripture or UR’s foundation is built upon sinking sand and not the solid ROCK. Matt 7:24-27.

I already have. The reversal is the redemption achieved by Christ for the person through Spirit and Fire. The reversal is in the achievement of the judgement’s end, which is that reversal unto redemption.

[snitzelhoff]

Revival,

Your name is recorded in the BOL when you receive this life and accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

Is it, really? Or was it there, already, “from the foundation of the world”?

[AllanS]

God loves all people that is why He gave us free-will to choose Him.

I love my children. That’s why I let them play with my shotgun. Godly parents never violate their children’s free will.

He doesn’t force himself on anyone to violate their will.

“All that the Father gives me will come to me.” “You have **not **chosen me. I have chosen you.” “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.” “Men make their plans, but the Lord directs their path.”

God says choose life or death. Choose life.

Choose the good God who gives life to all, not life to some. “In Adam, all die. In Christ, all shall be made alive.”

That is why it is appointed for man to die once then comes judgement.

Yes. We will die and face God in mutual judgment. Is that verse supposed to challenge UR?

I’m testing UR’s foundation to the core…For UR to be true the final judgment in Rev 20;11-15 must be reversed and recorded in scripture or your foundation is built upon sinking sand and not upon the solid ROCK. Matt 7:24-27.

Paul plainly teaches that all things that have come from God through Christ will return to God through Christ. “For from him and through him and to him are all things.” The symbolism of John’s Revelation must be made to harmonize with Paul’s plain teaching. Not the other way round.

[Revival]

Something had to happen to get our names written in the book of life. Who gives life? Jesus. Is it safe to assume before accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receiving life from him you don’t have it? Of course. (Eph 2:1;5) Your name is recorded in the BOL when you receive this life and accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

This life is receivable, I believe, pre and post mortem. Christ’s redemptive purpose, and the will of God the Christ is not defeated by Death - Christ defeated Death and Grave, it will not defeat him the second time, third time, or any time - hence Death does not defeat his will, neither physical death nor any sort of death. For Death to defeat The Lord’s purpose, would be for Death to defeat The Lord - an impossibility.

Books (plural) are open those you will be judged by your works and the book of life was opened…why? because this book determines your eternal destiny. If your name is found recorded you spend eternity with God…If your name is not found recorded you are thrown into the lake of fire and you are separated from God for eternity. Rev 20:11-15.

Eternal destiny? The translation is arguable. Separation from God for eternity? Arguable.

It is neither the will of God, nor is it in the power of Man to separate the loved one from the love of God who loves him. There is no separation from God, who is Love, when love is constantly, and ceaselessly being expressed upon a person, maintaining the life of the person, and drawing the person by that influence. For the will of a finite creature such as man to be capable of resisting God’s will for ever, is for that creature’s will to be overpowering the omnipotent will of God; an impossibility, the creature would be god above God - his will and being exceeding and overpowering that of The Being (God).

Show this final judgement in Rev 20:11-15 being reversed and recorded in scripture or UR’s foundation is built upon sinking sand and not the solid ROCK. Matt 7:24-27.

I already have. The reversal is the redemption achieved by Christ for the person through Spirit and Fire. The reversal is in the achievement of the judgement’s end, which is that reversal unto redemption.

I will try to be more clear. Show recorded scripture after the final judgment of actual people receiving redemption through the Spirit and Fire. huh? Notice the word final before judgment If you don’t believe that Rev 20:11-15 is not the final judgment…show me where there is another judgment that occurs after this one.

[Revival]

Revival,

Your name is recorded in the BOL when you receive this life and accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

Is it, really? Or was it there, already, “from the foundation of the world”?

Used to believe that too before my eyes were enlightened to the fact that wouldn’t make sense with the believers who get blotted out of the book of life.

[Lefein]

I will try to be more clear. Show recorded scripture after the final judgment of actual people receiving redemption through the Spirit and Fire. huh? Notice the word final before judgment If you don’t believe that Rev 20:11-15 is not the final judgment…show me where there is another judgment that occurs after this one.

Every knee shall bow, every tongue confessing unto the glory of God (which is obviously in Spirit and in Truth, backed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and done in free-will) isn’t a good enough reference? Christ making all things new? As in Adam all die (spiritually separated from God especially), as in Christ all shall be made alive (united to God especially)? And multiple other verses and verse references presented by your opponents in other posts?

I for one, don’t plan on insulting your intelligence in quoting verses you already know, and have already been quoted and posted by others in this thread and in the thread that I linked to you. However, I will give you such quotes as I’ve mentioned at least.

From the KJV;

Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[Lefein]

On a side note, I find it odd (and a rather bit illogical) to ask for documentation of the reversal of a judgement when that judgement was specifically for the achievement of an end; the purification of an individual, and the reunification of that individual unto God through Christ - The Judge.

The documentation of the reversal of the judgement, to me, would sound rather much like asking for a documentation concerning God re-drossing silver he had already previously de-drossed in fire…

But for the sake of what I believe is your intent…I’ll stick with the phraseology for now.

[Revival]

On a side note, I find it odd (and a rather bit illogical) to ask for documentation of the reversal of a judgement when that judgement was specifically for the achievement of an end; the purification of an individual, and the reunification of that individual unto God through Christ - The Judge.

The documentation of the reversal of the judgement, to me, would sound rather much like asking for a documentation concerning God re-drossing silver he had already previously de-drossed in fire…

But for the sake of what I believe is your intent…I’ll stick with the phraseology for now.

Are you sure you know what my asking you to do? shotgunning scriptures is not actually following the OP.

[Lefein]

Are you sure you know what my asking you to do? You continue to shotgun scriptures without actually following the OP.

I read the OP, and unless you’ve written it in an obscure language unrelated to English (which I don’t believe to be the case ) - I’m certain I understood it to mean - in summary; “give me a verse that tells me exactly where in the Bible the final judgement is reversed and everyone is saved; if you don’t give me exactly what I want, then Universal Reconciliation isn’t built on Christ, but is a sinking sand theology and that’s that, and that’s final”.

If that is not what what the original post is saying, forgive me, but more so I’d have to respectfully ask that you please write in English…or at least explain what you actually meant.

[snitzelhoff]

Revival,

Used to believe that too before my eyes were enlightened to the fact that wouldn’t make sense with the believers who get blotted out of the book of life.

So the Book of Life’s contents can be added to, then?