Challenge

[Revival]

Michael Thompson wrote:
Revi might be right in that this isn’t a picture of people getting saved, now that I think about it. but they are showing that they are saved, by their confession. Remember that no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit!
So technically he may be correct that it is not a confession UNTO salvation, but it doesn’t help his case, because obiously they are all saved anyhow, when it happened is irrelevant, all will be believers someday, and as a result they will bow the knee and confess Jesus to the glory of the Father!

This is pretty much how I see it as well, Michael. I believe Paul’s using poetic language in these verses (a number of Biblical scholars see these verses as being part of an early Christian hymn Paul was quoting) which is meant to convey the idea that all people will ultimately be subjected to Christ and will recognize Christ as the one who has saved them (which will include even the unbelieving Jews who rejected him and didn’t receive his words: John 12:47-48). This universal subjection and recognition may entail that everyone who has ever lived will, at some point, actually bow down to Christ and verbally confess that he is Lord, but I don’t think Paul’s words demand this more literal interpretation. I’m inclined to believe that Paul is simply saying that there is coming a day when the will of every person will ultimately be aligned with Christ’s will, making everyone a subject of the kingdom that we’re told Christ is going to deliver to God so that he may be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Of course if we go by your interpretation this would happen at the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15… and 1Cor 15:24-28 happens after the judgment in Rev 21:4.

Of course if we go by my interpretation The subject Paul is teaching in Phil 2 is not salvation eventually for everyone but the authority in the name of Jesus after his resurrection relative to the authority we have in Jesus as believers. This is supported in Eph 1 :19-23.

Phil 2:5-8. Paul is describing Jesus’ transformation from heaven to earth and humbling himself becoming obedient unto death of the cross. Verse 9 describes Jesus’ resurrection and given a name that is above every name.( authority). Most Christians struggle with this because they don’t know who they are or what they can do in Jesus.

[Aaron]

Revival:
Of course if we go by your interpretation this would happen at the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15… and 1Cor 15:24-28 happens after the judgment in Rev 21:4.

Where have I ever said that anyone will be or was subjected to Christ at the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15? That’s not my view.

[Revival]

Although I’m not a premillennialist (because I don’t believe in a literal thousand years - The “Thousand Years” of Revelation 20), it’s my view that the “day of the Lord” referred to in the above verses refers to the period of time leading up to and culminating with Christ’s coming, and is the same “day” of judgment referred to by Christ in Matt 12:36-37 (and is thus not a “post-millennial” judgment, as you seem to think).

First off, In no way am I claiming to be an end time expert.

The day of the Lord is the second coming of Christ when believers are resurrected and raptured. Matt 24:29-31; 1Cor 15:51-52; 1Thess 4:16-17 and 1Thess 5:1-2. This is not the same judgment in Matt 12:36-37 or John 12:48 which is post- millenial judgment at the great white throne judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

I didn’t ask you about your eschatological position because I wanted to debate preterism. I asked because (assuming you believe Christ’s “second coming” is before his millennial reign) I think there might be some inconsistencies in your view. It seems to be your position that the “last day” of which Christ speaks in John 12:48 refers to a period of time following the millennial reign of Christ, when you think the “Great White Throne Judgment” will take place. But if you’re a premillennialist, don’t you believe that the resurrection of born-again believers will take place at Christ’s coming (1 Cor 15:23), which will be sometime before the millennial reign of Christ (whether pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib)? That is, isn’t it your view that the “rapture” takes place sometime before the start of the millennium? But if that’s the case, then I’m not sure how (according to your view) the “last day” of John 12:48 can refer to a post-millennial judgment. Because in John 6 (vv. 40, 44, and 54) Christ declares that those who believe on him will be raised up on the “last day.” So if the judgment of Rev 20:11-15 takes place on the “last day,” then either this judgment takes place before the millennium (when believers will be made alive in Christ) or those who believe on Christ won’t be made alive in Christ until after the millennium (when you believe the judgment of Rev 20 takes place). If I’ve misunderstood your position, then I apologize and would appreciate clarification. But if not, then how is this not an inconsistency in your eschatological position?

The day of the Lord is when all believers dead and alive are resurrected and raptured. It happens after the tribulation. Matt 24:29
The day of the Lord is not a final judgment.
The day of the Lord and (in the day of judgment in Matt 12:36-37) are not the same event.

In other words, Paul was wrong. Notice that Paul does not say, “For as in Adam all die, so also all in Christ shall be made alive,” but rather, “…so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” Whereas the former expression could perhaps be construed in a more inclusive sense (i.e., if one put a comma after “all” and “Christ”), the latter cannot be understood to include less than all who die in Adam, because the “all” who are to be made alive in Christ are the same “all” who die in Adam. This, of course, would include both those who are just and those who are unjust (Acts 24:15). So unless everyone who dies in Adam will ultimately be added to the book of life, your view that one’s name being found in the book of life determines whether one will be made alive in Christ is mistaken.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.** Keep reading the next verse. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.**

This is describing the resurrection. 1. Jesus was the first to be resurrected.(firstfruits) 2. They that are Christ’s at his coming.( the day of the Lord) The All in Adam are not apart of this resurrection. Believers only.

Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29 are the resurrection of the just and unjust but that doesn’t mean they happen simultaneously.
Rev 20:5 explains this :** But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (unbelievers)
**

Do you think death will be abolished after the millennial reign for believers only, unbelievers only, both or neither?

If death will be abolished after the millennial reign for born-again believers, then it must be your view that born-again believers are not going to be raised immortal in the twinkling of an eye at Christ’s coming before the millennial reign, and that there is no pre-trib (or mid-trib/post-trib) rapture of born-again believers before the millennium. Is this your view?

If death will be abolished after the millennial reign for those who died as unbelievers (or believers and unbelievers), then I see no reason why everything else John says in v. 4 shouldn’t apply to them as well. And if that’s the case, then it means God is going to wipe away every tear from the eyes of those who died in unbelief, and that these people shall never mourn, cry or be in pain anymore.

All believers will be raised and raptured immortal according to 1Thess 4:16-17 and 1Cor 15:51-52. Death has no more sting for those who are raised in 1Thess 4:16-17 and 1Cor 15:51-52 according to Rev 20:6 and 1Cor 15:54-55. This the first resurrection. Rev 20:6. There will be no more saints dead or alive on the earth in mortal bodies after the first resurrection.

[Revival]

Revival:
Of course if we go by your interpretation this would happen at the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15… and 1Cor 15:24-28 happens after the judgment in Rev 21:4.

Where have I ever said that anyone will be or was subjected to Christ at the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15? That’s not my view.

Sorry, I’m just saying for every knee to bow and every tongue to confess it will certainly happen at the judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15. But Phil 2:10-11 is not talking about an eventual universal confession unto salvation but the authority in the name of Jesus. Every knee has to bow to the name that is above every name under in heaven, in earth and under the earth.

[Revival]

I think you meant verse 20. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Where in this verse does it say all things Under the earth? How about the billions of people who are in hell? Are they not under the earth?
Check out this verse:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth

Who says there are billions of people in hell under the earth? Where in scripture does it say that?

Luke 16:19-31. not everyone has gone to heaven after they have died since Genesis.

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

You wrote:

The day of the Lord is the second coming of Christ when believers are resurrected and raptured. Matt 24:29-31; 1Cor 15:51-52; 1Thess 4:16-17 and 1Thess 5:1-2. This is not the same judgment in Matt 12:36-37 or John 12:48 which is post-millenial judgment at the great white throne judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Ok, so if I’ve understood you correctly, you believe the “day of the Lord” refers to a certain “day” when a pre-millennial judgment will take place, and that the “last day” of John 12:48 refers to different “day” when a post-millennial judgment will take place. Is that correct?

Revival:
The day of the Lord is when all believers dead and alive are resurrected and raptured. It happens after the tribulation. Matt 24:29

While I read of the elect being gathered by “angels” (or “messengers”) in Matt 24:29, the text says nothing about a resurrection of the dead, or of people being raptured from the earth. Similarly, Jesus spoke of how he wanted to “gather” the children of Jerusalem in Matt 23:37, but there is no indication that he was talking about rapturing them from the earth. For all we know (based only on Matt 24:29 and its immediate context), the “gathering” that Christ had in view is one of mortal believers, and was to take place on the earth. The mere fact that he speaks of a “trumpet” as sounding at this time in no way means he’s talking about the same event of 1 Cor 15:52 (which is specifically called the “last trumpet,” and seems more fitting of something that is to take place at the “last day” ) or 1 Thess 4:16. That, to me, would be like saying that the “day” of John 12:48 must be the same “day” referred to in 1 Thess 5:2 just because the word “day” appears in both verses (btw, you seem to be saying that the “day of the Lord” happens after a time of tribulation, but Scripture seems to identify the “day of the Lord” with a time of tribulation - see, for example, Isaiah 2:12-21; 13:6-11; Ezekiel 30:1-8; Joel 1:13-16; 2:1-11, 23-32; 3:14-18; Zeph 1:7-18; 2:1-3; Zech 14:1-11; Mal 4:1-5; Matt 24:36-39; 1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev 6:15-17).

Revival:
The day of the Lord is not a final judgment.
The day of the Lord and in the day of judgment in Matt 12:36-37 are not the same event.

But why are you so confident that “the day of the Lord and in the day of judgment in Matt 12:36-37 are not the same event”? Why do you understand Matt 12:36-37 to be referring to a different judgment than, say, Isaiah 13:6-11, Mal 4:1-5, 1 Thess 5:1-11 or Rev 6:15-17?

Aaron:
In other words, Paul was wrong. Notice that Paul does not say, “For as in Adam all die, so also all in Christ shall be made alive,” but rather, “…so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” Whereas the former expression could perhaps be construed in a more inclusive sense (i.e., if one put a comma after “all” and “Christ”), the latter cannot be understood to include less than all who die in Adam, because the “all” who are to be made alive in Christ are the same “all” who die in Adam. This, of course, would include both those who are just and those who are unjust (Acts 24:15). So unless everyone who dies in Adam will ultimately be added to the book of life, your view that one’s name being found in the book of life determines whether one will be made alive in Christ is mistaken.

Revival:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. Keep reading the next verse. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

This is describing the resurrection. 1. Jesus was the first to be resurrected.(firstfruits) 2. They that are Christ’s at his coming.( the day of the Lord) The All in Adam are not apart of this resurrection. Believers only.

Either all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ or they won’t, Aaron. Which is it? You seem to think that those who are made alive in Christ are not the same persons who die in Adam. But that’s precisely what Paul’s saying in v. 22. Even if Paul’s talking about a subcategory of persons in v. 23 when he says, “they that are Christ’s at his coming,” this fact wouldn’t limit v. 22 to mean less than all who die in Adam. But I deny that Paul’s even speaking of a subcategory of persons in v. 23. When Paul speaks of Christ as the “firstfruits,” he’s most likely alluding to the “Feast of Firstfruits,” as described in Lev 23:9-14. This feast had only two “orders.” There was 1) the “firstfruits” of the harvest (in which a sheaf was brought into the temple and then shaken by the priest toward the four quarters of the world as a dedication to God, and as evidence of the consecration of the whole harvest throughout the nation) and 2) the rest of the harvest, which would follow afterwards. In accordance with this imagery, Paul gives us only two specific “orders”: 1) “Christ, the firstfruits” and 2) “those who are Christ’s at his coming.” Christ, the first to have been raised from the dead never to die again, is the first in the “order” (or “rank”) among mankind (cf. Col 1:18; Rev 1:5), and is the pledge and consecration of the rest of the “harvest” to God. And “those who are Christ’s as his coming” are simply those of whom Christ is the “firstfruits,” and correspond to the general “harvest.” They are second in the “order” or “rank.” But of whom is Christ the “firstfruits?” Well previously, Paul wrote (vv. 20-21), “But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.”

Let’s stop right there. Who are “the dead” that Paul has in view here? Answer: Paul’s talking about dead human beings in general. Every person who has descended from Adam was born mortal, and every descendent of Adam will die (with the only exception being those who will be found alive at Christ’s coming to raise the dead; Paul, however, hasn’t revealed this fact yet).

Moving on to v. 22: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” From these verses it appears that Paul’s talking about humanity in general - i.e., every human being who will die prior to, and be found “asleep” at, Christ’s coming to raise the dead. So if Paul has all dead human beings in view in vv. 20-22, then we can reasonably conclude that Paul has the same category of people in view when he speaks of “those who are Christ’s at his coming.” The reason he refers to all who die in Adam as “those who are Christ’s at his coming” in v. 23 is simply because all who die in Adam comprise the “harvest” of which Christ is the “firstfruits.” Christ was raised as the “firstborn from the dead” and the “firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep,” and at some future time “those who are Christ’s at his coming” (i.e., those of whom Christ is the “firstfruits,” and who will be found “asleep” when Christ comes to destroy death and subject all people to himself) will be raised as well. The resurrection that Paul has in view here is universal insofar as humanity is concerned.

Revival:
Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29 are the resurrection of the just and unjust but that doesn’t mean they happen simultaneously.

I deny that Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29 are referring to the same event. My understanding of John 5:28-29 can be found here: HI!. I should also add that the resurrection of both the just and the unjust was such good news to Paul that he expressed his “hope in God” that it was going to take place (Acts 24:15). If the unjust are going to be introduced into a state in which they will have to endure endless pain and misery with immortal bodies, then it would be rather fiendish of Paul to hope that it was going to take place. But thank God, the unjust are not going to be raised from the dead that they may endure endless torment with immortal bodies. The very idea makes me cringe; only the devil of Christian orthodoxy would bestow immortality upon people knowing that they will be forever miserable in this state. The idea that Christ - the one who died and rose for all - would resurrect some people to an immortal state that he knows will be endlessly miserable in this condition is nothing less than blasphemous to me. Yet that is exactly what you have Christ doing.

Revival:
Rev 20:5 explains this : But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (unbelievers)

My view on this verse can be found here: The "Thousand Years" of Revelation 20

I’ll wait until you’ve responded to my first question to you in this post before I make any further comments on this verse.

Aaron:
Do you think death will be abolished after the millennial reign for believers only, unbelievers only, both or neither?

If death will be abolished after the millennial reign for born-again believers, then it must be your view that born-again believers are not going to be raised immortal in the twinkling of an eye at Christ’s coming before the millennial reign, and that there is no pre-trib (or mid-trib/post-trib) rapture of born-again believers before the millennium. Is this your view?

If death will be abolished after the millennial reign for those who died as unbelievers (or believers and unbelievers), then I see no reason why everything else John says in v. 4 shouldn’t apply to them as well. And if that’s the case, then it means God is going to wipe away every tear from the eyes of those who died in unbelief, and that these people shall never mourn, cry or be in pain anymore.

Revival:
All believers will be raised and raptured immortal according to 1Thess 4:16-17 and 1Cor 15:51-52. Death has no more sting for those who are raised in 1Thess 4:16-17 and 1Cor 15:51-52 according to Rev 20:6 and 1Cor 15:54-55. This the first resurrection. Rev 20:6. There will be no more saints dead or alive on the earth in mortal bodies after the first resurrection.

According to your view, the resurrection of believers is a pre-millennial event. But you also said, “Death will be abolished after the millennial reign in Rev 21:4” (Only a few find it.). If all believers are made immortal just before the millennial reign, then the persons for whom death will be abolished “after the millennial reign” can only be everyone else. Not only this, but you refer to Rev 21:4 when you say that “death will be abolished after the millennial reign.” If Rev 21:4 refers to death being abolished after the millennial reign, and those for whom death is being abolished at this time are unbelievers (for you believe all believers were already made immortal before the millennial reign), then it means God is going to wipe away every tear from the eyes of those who died in unbelief, and that these people shall never mourn, cry or be in pain anymore. How does this not follow, Aaron?

[redhotmagma]

I think you meant verse 20. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Where in this verse does it say all things Under the earth? How about the billions of people who are in hell? Are they not under the earth?
Check out this verse:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth

Who says there are billions of people in hell under the earth? Where in scripture does it say that?

Luke 16:19-31. not everyone has gone to heaven after they have died since Genesis.

So which hell are they in once they die and are awaiting judgement? Gehenna, Hades, Sheol, Lake of Fire, Tartarus?

[Revival]

Is this off topic of the Op? Anyway, Gehenna is symbolic of the lake of fire therefore no one is there yet. Sheol/Hades are the same place. Tartarus is a place that is holding demonic spirits until Revelation.

[redhotmagma]

Is this off topic of the Op? Anyway, Gehenna is symbolic of the lake of fire therefore no one is there yet. Sheol/Hades are the same place. Tartarus is a place that is holding demonic spirits until Revelation.

Well your King James translates them all as hell, so I was just trying to figure out which hell you felt they were in? I don’t see how its off topic, just trying to clarify your position. So which one is it?

Gehenna is symbolic of something else thats symbolic but is actually literal?

[Revival]

Ok, so if I’ve understood you correctly, you believe the “day of the Lord” refers to a certain “day” when a pre-millennial judgment will take place, and that the “last day” of John 12:48 refers to different “day” when a post-millennial judgment will take place. Is that correct?

Again, the day of the Lord refers to the second coming of Christ when all believers will be resurrected and raptured after the tribulation. You are trying to tie what happens after the tribulation and John 12:48 as being the same, but they are not.

John 12:48, Matt 12:36-37; Matt 25;31-46; Rev 20:11-15 are all the same judgment. Everyone will stand before God and be judged by their works ( take account for everything they have said, done, etc) and to see if their names are recorded in the book of life to determine where they spend eternity. This is a personal, individual judgement that every human who has ever lived will go through. That is the difference.

Now, there is a judgment that happens after the day of the Lord. This judgment is against sin that has corrupted creation. Not the individual judgment that every human who ever lived will go through. God is giving the world one last alter call in Revelation to call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. I hope you understand me correctly now.

While I read of the elect being gathered by “angels” (or “messengers”) in Matt 24:29, the text says nothing about a resurrection of the dead, or of people being raptured from the earth. Similarly, Jesus spoke of how he wanted to “gather” the children of Jerusalem in Matt 23:37, but there is no indication that he was talking about rapturing them from the earth. For all we know (based only on Matt 24:29 and its immediate context), the “gathering” that Christ had in view is one of mortal believers, and was to take place on the earth. The mere fact that he speaks of a “trumpet” as sounding at this time in no way means he’s talking about the same event of 1 Cor 15:52 (which is specifically called the “last trumpet,” and seems more fitting of something that is to take place at the “last day” ) or 1 Thess 4:16. That, to me, would be like saying that the “day” of John 12:48 must be the same “day” referred to in 1 Thess 5:2 just because the word “day” appears in both verses (btw, you seem to be saying that the “day of the Lord” happens after a time of tribulation, but Scripture seems to identify the “day of the Lord” with a time of tribulation - see, for example, Isaiah 2:12-21; 13:6-11; Ezekiel 30:1-8; Joel 1:13-16; 2:1-11, 23-32; 3:14-18; Zeph 1:7-18; 2:1-3; Zech 14:1-11; Mal 4:1-5; Matt 24:36-39; 1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev 6:15-17).

I disagree, the gathering of the elect (all believers) in Matt 24:31 is the same event in 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1Cor 15:51-52.

Matt 24:31** And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet**, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Thess 4:16 16** For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:** and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:52 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Do you see this, Aaron? Same event. In all the verses the elect are being gathered or caught up to be with the Lord. Btw, Matt 24:31 says the angels are gathering the elect from the earth and heaven. 1 Thess 4:16 and 1Cor 15:52 are doing the same. No living mortals there.

But why are you so confident that “the day of the Lord and in the day of judgment in Matt 12:36-37 are not the same event”? Why do you understand Matt 12:36-37 to be referring to a different judgment than, say, Isaiah 13:6-11, Mal 4:1-5, 1 Thess 5:1-11 or Rev 6:15-17?

See my answers above. I will address your other comments later when I have time.

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

I wrote:

Ok, so if I’ve understood you correctly, you believe the “day of the Lord” refers to a certain “day” when a pre-millennial judgment will take place, and that the “last day” of John 12:48 refers to different “day” when a post-millennial judgment will take place. Is that correct?

You wrote:

Again, the day of the Lord refers to the second coming of Christ when all believers will be resurrected and raptured after the tribulation. You are trying to tie what happens after the tribulation and John 12:48 as being the same, but they are not.

Actually, what I’m trying to do is point out what seems to me to be an inconsistency in your position. You believe that the “day of the Lord” refers to a time before the millennium (when you think all believers will be resurrected), and that the “last day” of John 12:48 refers to a different time that comes after the millennium (when the so-called “final judgment” of Rev 20:11-15 will take place). But when does Jesus say that believers will be raised up by him?

“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40).

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day” (v. 44).

“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (v. 54).

It seems to me that either Jesus was mistaken as to when he’s going to resurrect believers (or when the judgment of John 12:48 is going to take place), or you are. How would you respond to this?

Revival:
John 12:48, Matt 12:36-37; Matt 25;31-46; Rev 20:11-15 are all the same judgment. Everyone will stand before God and be judged by their works ( take account for everything they have said, done, etc) and to see if their names are recorded in the book of life to determine where they spend eternity. This is a personal, individual judgement that every human who has ever lived will go through. That is the difference.

Where do we read about “every human who has ever lived” going through the judgments referred to in these verses? I realize this is what you believe, but I don’t think you’re getting this from the texts. Rather, you seem to be reading this idea into the texts.

Revival:
Now, there is a judgment that happens after the day of the Lord. This judgment is against sin that has corrupted creation. Not the individual judgment that every human who ever lived will go through. God is giving the world one last alter call in Revelation to call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. I hope you understand me correctly now.

Why is it that Scripture identifies the day of the Lord - and not a time after the day of the Lord - as a time of severe judgment on human beings? Again, see (for example) Isaiah 2:12-21; 13:6-11; Ezekiel 30:1-8; Joel 1:13-16; 2:1-11, 23-32; 3:14-18; Zeph 1:7-18; 2:1-3; Zech 14:1-11; Mal 4:1-5; Matt 24:36-39; 1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev 6:15-17.

Aaron:
While I read of the elect being gathered by “angels” (or “messengers”) in Matt 24:29, the text says nothing about a resurrection of the dead, or of people being raptured from the earth. Similarly, Jesus spoke of how he wanted to “gather” the children of Jerusalem in Matt 23:37, but there is no indication that he was talking about rapturing them from the earth. For all we know (based only on Matt 24:29 and its immediate context), the “gathering” that Christ had in view is one of mortal believers, and was to take place on the earth. The mere fact that he speaks of a “trumpet” as sounding at this time in no way means he’s talking about the same event of 1 Cor 15:52 (which is specifically called the “last trumpet,” and seems more fitting of something that is to take place at the “last day” ) or 1 Thess 4:16. That, to me, would be like saying that the “day” of John 12:48 must be the same “day” referred to in 1 Thess 5:2 just because the word “day” appears in both verses (btw, you seem to be saying that the “day of the Lord” happens after a time of tribulation, but Scripture seems to identify the “day of the Lord” with a time of tribulation - see, for example, Isaiah 2:12-21; 13:6-11; Ezekiel 30:1-8; Joel 1:13-16; 2:1-11, 23-32; 3:14-18; Zeph 1:7-18; 2:1-3; Zech 14:1-11; Mal 4:1-5; Matt 24:36-39; 1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev 6:15-17).

Revival:
I disagree, the gathering of the elect (all believers) in Matt 24:31 is the same event in 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1Cor 15:51-52.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Thess 4:16 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:52 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Do you see this, Aaron? Same event. In all the verses the elect are being gathered or caught up to be with the Lord. Btw, Matt 24:31 says the angels are gathering the elect from the earth and heaven. 1 Thess 4:16 and 1Cor 15:52 are doing the same. No living mortals there.

The expression “from one end of heaven to the other” was simply a way of speaking of the visible horizon, where the sun was seen to rise and set. It has nothing to do with the dwelling place of God and the angels in the “third heaven.” For example, Deut 4:32 reads, “For ask now of the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether such a great thing as this has ever happened or was ever heard of.” And in Psalm 19:4-6 we read, " Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat."

So again, where is your proof that Matt 24:31 refers to the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 or 1 Cor 15:52? There is nothing said about a resurrection of the dead or a rapture from the earth in Matt 24:31. Nor is the trumpet in this verse said to be the “last trumpet.”

[Revival]

Actually, what I’m trying to do is point out what seems to me to be an inconsistency in your position. You believe that the “day of the Lord” refers to a time before the millennium (when you think all believers will be resurrected), and that the “last day” of John 12:48 refers to a different time that comes after the millennium (when the so-called “final judgment” of Rev 20:11-15 will take place). But when does Jesus say that believers will be raised up by him?

“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40).

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day” (v. 44).

“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (v. 54).

It seems to me that either Jesus was mistaken as to when he’s going to resurrect believers (or when the judgment of John 12:48 is going to take place), or you are. How would you respond to this?

The inconsistency is brought on by your misunderstanding of what the day of the Lord really is. John 6:40;44;54 happen in the day of the Lord. Again, the day of the Lord is not an individual judgment that happens in Rev 20:11-15. It is the second coming of Jesus Christ resurrecting all believers dead and alive in earth and in heaven.

Where do we read about “every human who has ever lived” going through the judgments referred to in these verses? I realize this is what you believe, but I don’t think you’re getting this from the texts. Rather, you seem to be reading this idea into the texts.

Rev 20:11-15. Dan 12:2. 2 Cor 5:10.

Why is it that Scripture identifies the day of the Lord - and not a time after the day of the Lord - as a time of severe judgment on human beings? Again, see (for example) Isaiah 2:12-21; 13:6-11; Ezekiel 30:1-8; Joel 1:13-16; 2:1-11, 23-32; 3:14-18; Zeph 1:7-18; 2:1-3; Zech 14:1-11; Mal 4:1-5; Matt 24:36-39; 1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev 6:15-17.

Again, what happens** first** in the day of the Lord, Aaron? 1 Thess 4:16-17 happens first and then Paul explains in the next chapter 1 Thess 5:2 in the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night and then sudden destruction.

Your preterist lenses are blinding you to the truth in Matt 24:29-31; 1 Thess 4:16-17; 1 Cor 15:51-52.

[Revival]

Is this off topic of the Op? Anyway, Gehenna is symbolic of the lake of fire therefore no one is there yet. Sheol/Hades are the same place. Tartarus is a place that is holding demonic spirits until Revelation.

Well your King James translates them all as hell, so I was just trying to figure out which hell you felt they were in? I don’t see how its off topic, just trying to clarify your position. So which one is it?

Gehenna is symbolic of something else thats symbolic but is actually literal?

The lake of fire is more real than this unprofitable discussion. Hell/Hades is where all the billions of unbelievers since Genesis dwell.

[SLJ]

It might be helpful to talk about definitions: literal, symbolic, real

Maybe people are talking past each other because they’re using the words in different ways?

Sonia

[redhotmagma]

Is this off topic of the Op? Anyway, Gehenna is symbolic of the lake of fire therefore no one is there yet. Sheol/Hades are the same place. Tartarus is a place that is holding demonic spirits until Revelation.

Well your King James translates them all as hell, so I was just trying to figure out which hell you felt they were in? I don’t see how its off topic, just trying to clarify your position. So which one is it?

Gehenna is symbolic of something else thats symbolic but is actually literal?

The lake of fire is more real than this unprofitable discussion. Hell/Hades is where all the billions of unbelievers since Gensis dwell.

Testy testy, and you call me arrogant.

So Gehenna, which has been translated hell really equals the LOF, and Hades is the real hell, that then gets thrown into hell? God tortures people immediately after they die in hell hell only to resurrect them, judge them then throw them into another hell? Is that the gist of your viewpoint?

[Revival]

Testy testy, and you call me arrogant.

So Gehenna, which has been translated hell really equals the LOF, and Hades is the real hell, that then gets thrown into hell? God tortures people immediately after they die in hell hell only to resurrect them, judge them then throw them into another hell? Is that the gist of your viewpoint?

Go through the entire NT and look up with word ‘pneuma’ which is spirit. The translators capitalize the S in word spirit in almost every case. This is not correct. They did make some mistakes.

Read Luke 16:19-31 and then John 5:28-29 and then Rev 20:11-15. This is the word of God. You don’t have a problem me, redhotmagma, you have a problem with accepting God’s word. I suggest you take it up with Him. God bless.

[SLJ]

Read Luke 16:19-31 and then John 5:28-29 and then Rev 20:11-15. This is the word of God. You don’t have a problem me, redhotmagma, you have a problem with accepting God’s word. I suggest you take it up with Him. God bless.

Aaron,
The disagreement is not about accepting God’s word, but accepting your understanding of God’s word. Effectively, you are saying that your understanding of God’s word IS God’s word, and anyone who disagrees with you is disagreeing with God. I hope you don’t really think that.

Statements like this are out of line.

Sonia

[james.goetz]

Read Luke 16:19-31 and then John 5:28-29 and then Rev 20:11-15. This is the word of God. You don’t have a problem me, redhotmagma, you have a problem with accepting God’s word. I suggest you take it up with Him. God bless.

Aaron,
The disagreement is not about accepting God’s word, but accepting your understanding of God’s word. Effectively, you are saying that your understanding of God’s word IS God’s word, and anyone who disagrees with you is disagreeing with God. I hope you don’t really think that.

Statements like this are out of line.

Sonia

Sonia, Well said.

[Revival]

Read Luke 16:19-31 and then John 5:28-29 and then Rev 20:11-15. This is the word of God. You don’t have a problem me, redhotmagma, you have a problem with accepting God’s word. I suggest you take it up with Him. God bless.

Aaron,
The disagreement is not about accepting God’s word, but accepting your understanding of God’s word. Effectively, you are saying that your understanding of God’s word IS God’s word, and anyone who disagrees with you is disagreeing with God. I hope you don’t really think that.

Statements like this are out of line.

Sonia

Sonia

Not saying I am the final authority when it comes to understanding the word of God (the Holy Spirit is) but these verses are as clear as the day is long. Generally speaking, it is a fact… the body of Christ are ignorant to the word of God because they neglect the standard God has established in his word to understand it.

[redhotmagma]

Revival, Jesus spoke in parables, the Rich man and Lazarus story is a parable. Do you understand what a parable is?

How many people can fit into Abrahams bosom? What was it called before Abraham lived and died? Where did the people go before Abraham was born and died? Did Abraham go to his own bosom?

Since when is someone sent to hell for being rich and someone sent to “heaven” for being poor?

Is the kingdom of heaven really a mustard seed? Is it a treasure buried in a field? Maybe Christ really has sex with us at the consumation of the wedding. Maybe New Jerusalem really is a giant woman coming out of heaven, that happens to be a cube, measured in angel cubits. With Pearly gates. Wow that must be one ugly woman

John 5:29 judgement does not automatically mean eternal punishment. It says nothing of eternal punishment here. You claim we are the ones who use a shotgun approach but isn’t that exactly what you’re doing here? You read in eternal punishment, but judgement is just that a judgement. The KJV says damnation but thats just incorrect.

And before you say show me the verse that says people come out of the LOF, I still hold up Zephaniah 3:8,9.