The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Some believe that “God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially them that believe” per 1 Timothy 4:10 means that God is just a provider of food and rain and clothing etc. for all mankind, not that He actually saves all mankind from what we get due to Adam’s disobedience.

My reply is thus:

1 Timothy 4:10 says “God is the Saviour of all mankind, expecially (not exclusively) them that believe.” Now then, if we think this through we must conclude that God is the believer’s Saviour just as He is all mankind’s Saviour. Does God always provide for the believer? No. Paul was in danger night and day, in swamps, in hunger, thrice left for dead and on and on. A Saviour is one who actually saves, not just one who offers salvation. If He is the believer’s Saviour, thus is He all mankind’s Saviour. He will save those He is the Saviour of.

#2

The word “especially” in 1 Timothy 4:10 does not mean “exclusively.”
God is the saviour of all mankind, especially them that believe.

For instance, when Paul wrote to Timothy, he requested these things of him:

2Ti_4:13 When you come, bring the traveling cloak which I left in Troas with Carpus, and the scrolls,** especially** the vellums."

Paul did not want Timothy to just bring the vellums as if he were to exclude the cloak, and scrolls. And neither does God want just the believers at the exclusion of all mankind. Get it?

Believers get an “especial” salvation prior to the rest of mankind. Believers get life for the coming glorious eons/ages. The rest of mankind come later.

#3

Good explanation, Eusebius.

I think people see passages like this and they interpret them in “light” of the verses that seem to teach ECT . (Or Conditional Immortality–CI–or Annihilation–Anni). WE Christian Universalists do the same thing. We interpret the “hell verses” in light of our belief that God really is GOOD. (Yeah, that’s a weighted statement; I did it on purpose. :laughing: ) I think we have the overwhelmingly better case, when taken in context of the entirety of the written word, and most importantly, the character of the LIVING Word.

But…back to the point. This passage clearly teaches exactly what you explain. However the devoted ECT believer MUST find some way to explain it away. There are passages that we also “interpret away,” but the difference is that WE’RE RIGHT! :wink:

#4

Exactly Cindy. I think a lot of it comes down to What makes the most sense. If our belief structure is such that all verses are in harmony, then we have the better explanation. For instance, the one who believes in eternal torment believes or “cherry picks” certain verses in an attempt to contradict the very plain verse we hold which show God will save all mankind. Their beliefs are out of balance.

Case in point: The lake of fire. ECTers believe that is eternal. But it is my understanding it is “death.” It is neither torment for humans nor eternal. How could it be eternal when, after all, our loving God has assured us that “death will be abolished” per 1 Corinthians 15:26. The apostle Paul saw beyond John’s Revelation in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. He saw the day when Christ would cease to reign. He saw the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be annulled. He saw the day when death would be abolished, all mankind subjected to Christ and then the glorious apex of God’s love in being “All in all.” The grand goal God has for all mankind will have been reached after Revelation.

1Co 15:25 For He must be reigning** until** He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.

How long does He reign? “He reigns until . . . .” Christ will rule so perfectly that He will rule out all rule. What are the enemies? They are things such as death that are keeping God from being All in all.

#5

Another passage which Christians have a mistaken idea of is this:

Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one. Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers. Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:38-42)

But what did Christ mean by “furnace of fire”? Is it eternal hell fire damnation? Does the above disprove God will save all? Hardly.

When the Israelites were in Egypt they were in an iron furnace. God said He was purifying them in fire as gold is purified. Was Egypt a literal iron furnace? Was Egypt literally on fire for 400 some years? Were the Israelites literally experiencing torment in fire? No. The iron furnace represented their enslavement under harsh conditions. What is interesting is that Israel went into that furnace as a very small group in the beginning but came out as a great host.

Per the above passage in Matthew, when Christ returns He is going to clean house. He will kick out of Israel all those doing lawlessness. So what is the furnace of fire? Once again, it is concerning Israelites being kicked out of Israel and having to live among the nations. But what nations?

When Christ returns, He is also going to judge Nations as to how they treated His brethren per Matthew 25:31-46. Those “goat” nations will receive “eonian chastening” or "chastening pertaining to that eon which happens to last 1000 years. They will enter into the fire prepared for the adversary [nation] and its emissaries (some translations say “Adversary and his angels,” or “devil and his angels.” But "angels here are “messengers” or “emissaries” which carried messages to arrest and persecute Christ’s brethren. Those bad nations will be ruled with an iron club during Christ’s rule. The bad Jews in Matthew 13 will be cast out of Israel and will have to live, once again, in a furnace of fire among those nations which are under Christ’s negative judgment. But this judgment is not eternal. It is eonian. It is pertaining to a thousand years.

#6

Cindy, I surely don’t want you to think of me as some sort of psychophant when I say what I’m about to say concerning your posts. I just have to say that God has truly given you a great deal of wisdom and understanding. And rather than wield that as a sword, you are so kind and courteous to those you answer. God has truly blessed you and we are honored to have someone like you posting here. I’m sorry if I am embarrassing you by stating this. That is not my intent. I just am so thankful to God for what He has done in your life and just feel the need to tell you. Please accept it at face value.

Eusebius

#7

Thanks so much, Eusebius. God is so good–He gives us one another to bless us and to refine us.

I enjoyed reading your posts–you have a great deal of insight–lots of things to think about. God speaks through your grace and your obedience to Him as He grows His wisdom in you. Isn’t He wonderfully good?

I’m not sure whether we can interpret the fire as any ONE thing. It certainly does mean death, and possibly in this case, death is a good thing. Only by dying to the flesh can we live before God. Our God is a consuming fire.

I know CS Lewis has this thing for salamanders–the legendary/mythical kind that live in the fire without being harmed by it and possess amazing wisdom. The first time I saw them in his work was “The Silver Chair,” and while I didn’t understand it at the time, I did find the idea very attractive. Now I know why, at least in part. That fire is our God, and we are the salamanders. The fire doesn’t hurt us; it destroys our bonds and our foolishness and makes us wise. To us, the fire that is our God is pleasant, enlivening, invigorating, ultimate bliss. To the wicked, it is torment–but the torment refines and heals and gives them rebirth.

The Lake of Fire isn’t a punishment primarily, but rather a place of healing. (And of course “torment” is a very complicated word.) The pain is in our own hands–so long as we continue to cling to evil, we will experience God’s nearness as torture. Maybe the LOF, being outside the City, is more endurable to the wicked than the nearer presence of God enthroned at the center of the New Jerusalem would be. Eventually though, we have to let go of the worthless and harmful things we hold to so desperately–things which are death to us. Once those things burn up, the fire of God will no longer cause pain, there being no evil left in us to consume. What joy! What delight! What absolute bliss, to live in the everlasting fire of our good and loving and magnificent Father.

Blessings, Cindy

#8

Hi Cindy,
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you that the lake of fire isn’t punishment.
I’d like to add to to your thoughts concerning the lake of fire.

There is a teaching going around, which proposes that those in the second death are alive and are being given a chance to be educated in the things of God and to be added to the scroll of life.
However, it is my understanding that whenever a figure of speech is explained, one side of the equation is figurative and the other side is literal. For instance, “the lake of fire is the second death.” If the fire is figurative, the death must be literal. It cannot be that a figurative statement represents another figurative statement. It is always “figurative = literal” or “literal = figurative.” An example of “literal = figurative” might be: “This ship is a fine lady.” That being said, it is my understanding that the figurative lake of fire represents literal death.

Now let’s just assume for argument’s sake that the lake of fire is literal and death is figurative. And let us look at the duration of what John says that death is. He says it is “for the eons of the eons” or “for the ages of the ages.” So there is a time limit imposed on those interred in this death state. Now let’s assume “death” here means “dead to God.” How long are they dead to God? They are dead to God for the eons of the eons. Therefore, all means of educating these people would be futile. Let’s assume God had said, “They will have leprosy for the eons of the eons.” No amount of doctoring of these people would heal them of their leprosy. Would you agree to that?

Therefore, if we go by this new teaching going around that these people interred in the second death are actually alive and have the ability to be taught out of their deadness, such effort would be in vain. It would be like kicking a dead horse.

Now then, if we go by the figurative = the literal, we understand that these people will be literally dead for the duration of their sentence, i.e., for the eons of the eons. No amount of trying to resuscitate these people or burn the bad out of them will be successful prior to the end of the eons of the eons. They simply must await util that which comes to pass: “death being abolished” per 1 Corinthians 15:26. They must wait for Christ to reign *until *all sovereignty, authority and power is done away. And when Christ quits reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power are done away, then death will be abolished and God will be All in all. 1 Corinthians 15 is dealing with physical death. Christ is the firstfruit of vivification out of physical death, then it is those who are Christ’s and then, finally, the rest of mankind come into immortality and incorruption and God is All in all.

#9

Hi, Eusebius

Sorry to take so long–I forgot to subscribe to this topic and so I only just now happened on your response. I don’t really know or understand about all these rules–figurative this must equal literal that, etc. It’s the first time I’ve heard of any rules like that and I’m not sure I buy it. I’m honestly not even sure where you’re going with it, except I think I hear you saying that the occupants of the LoF are going to be there for a fixed period of time. That could be and I’ve heard that idea propounded before. It never really convinced me for some reason. It just doesn’t sound like God, but maybe it’s the truth after all. God doesn’t answer to me and He’ll do what He knows to be best. I’m obviously okay with that. :wink: (Not that God requires my ascent.)

This is the way I see it. Paul warns that if we build on the foundation already laid with worthless materials like wood, hay, stubble, etc., then we will still be saved, but as through fire. That is the LoF. The priests are commanded to wash in the Bronze Sea (bronze=judgment and judgment is often compared to fire. Fire is used to cleanse and likewise, the water in the “sea” or laver is for cleansing. Plus, the sea is made from mirrors donated by the women who were working on the tapestries in the Tabernacle. All of this (to me) speaks of judgment of the kind that is intended to force someone to see himself truly and also to destroy the filth within that one (fire, water being the figures for this cleansing) and thus to heal that person of his inequity and cleanse him of the impurities within himself. I see the bronze laver as a prefigurement of the LoF. Finally, as it is said, our God IS a consuming fire. His presence IS the destruction of evil. Sure, we can hold that evil if we really want to. We can “protect” that fire in our bosom, but it will burn us and torment us (I speak figuratively) until we realize what it is, that it is the cause of the anguish we experience in God’s presence, and let it go. We can let go at any time–I believe that is OUR choice. God is a consuming fire, but if there is no wood, hay and stubble found in us, then there is nothing for that fire to destroy. We can run and play in the heart of the fire like the “salamanders” do, because we have been purified. To us, our God is truth and beauty and love and life and joy, but to the one who cherishes evil in his heart, the presence of God is torture.

I don’t think there is any time limit. Because of scientific considerations, I lean toward God being (literally) eternity. Eternity is a state in which we go beyond time. It’s impossible for us to really conceive of this fully, but it does speak against the idea of some sort of time limit during which certain persons must suffer until they are finally released. Besides all that, I just don’t see God as being a one-size-fits-all kind of God. I think He deals with each of us individually, specifically in the exact way WE need to be dealt with in order to perfect/mature us.

All that said, anything I can come up with is speculation. Scripture may drop hints, but it doesn’t clearly tell us how judgment and justification and perfecting of the saints (and the not-yet-saints) is going to happen. We don’t know. It’s fascinating to think about and explore to the limits of our limited understanding, but yeah–the final word is that we just don’t know.

#10

[size=130]Hi Cindy, thanks for your response. It is nice we can agree on some points but disagree on others and yet remain at peace as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Does it sound like God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities surrounding them, with fire? Or does it sound like God to put to death certain Israelites and then have their dead bodies cast into the trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where their bodies will be burned up or, if fire is not in the location in that dump where their body is cast, to be eaten by worms during Christ’s millennial reign? God doesn’t torture humans. God torturing humans by His presence would be like being married to a woman who hates her husband and mercilously yells at him night and day until blood runs out his ears. Been there, done that. I’d rather be dead. The lake of fire is not torture for humans. It is merely death. That is a rather kind thing for God to do. Put them into the repose of death until death is abolished. If the Bible says the lake of fire is for the eons of the eons, how can it not be for a set amount of time?[/size]

[size=130]Did you know right there you used a simile/figure of speech? “as through fire” is a figure of speech. It is another way of saying “it will be just like going through fire” but without the literal fire. Believers don’t go to the lake of fire because we are not absent from the scroll of life. We are in Christ. Is Christ’s name absent from the scroll of life?[/size]

[size=130]I really like how you explained the Bronze sea etc. Again, there are lots of figures of speech used above. We don’t literally use, hay, wood and stubble on the foundation and neither is the fire literal. I don’t understand your thinking. First of all you say my view is not very like God yet you believe God tortures people? Salamanders are not fire proof. It might be of some help to read this:[/size] wired.com/2014/08/fantastically-wrong-homicidal-salamander/

[size=130]You don’t believe the 2nd death has a time limit on it, that they are to remain in death for eternity because of “God being (literally) eternity”? Maybe I misunderstood you. I often do misunderstand people. Sorry if I did. But where did you find that in your Bible that God is literally eternity? My Bible says the LOF is for the duration of the eons of the eons and then Paul said In 1 Cor.15:26 that death will be abolished AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. All through Revelation, we have sovereignties, authorities and power still in force. Therefore all those interred in that death are still interred during the scope of Revelation. They don’t get out, one-at-a-time. They don’t get out once they are good enough to get out. How can one be good while they are dead? And whatever happened to what comes out of Christ’s death for mankind? That wasn’t good enough? Man now has to save himself? Man has to make himself pure to stand before God? [/size]

[size=130]I beg to differ, friend. Romans 5:18 and 19 does, in fact, tell us how it is all mankind will be made righteous. It is solely due to Christ one right act. And 1 Corinthians 15 shows all mankind being made alive/vivified due to Christ and that the way they are made righteous is by being given immortality and incorruption. This immortality and incorruption is not earned. It is graciously given. If God had to wait for man to clean up himself, He would never be All in all (1 Cor.15:28). Even though we do disagree, it is refreshing we can do it in civility, right?[/size]

#11

Hi, Eusebius

Too funny–It never even occurred to me that you would think I meant literal fire. No–fire is a symbol of cleansing in scripture and that was the sense I meant. I think that for the person experiencing correction, it can be ‘hellish,’ but I don’t mean that God puts anyone through literal physical pain. I do think that perhaps the means of healing for some of us has to include a sense of what we’ve 'put others through. (Justice might also demand something similar to this, but I’m not settled on that point.) Getting that sense would necessarily put them/us into a place of at least psychical pain. The pain may be necessary in order to bring about the healing from inequity. I suspect it WILL be, in at least some cases–not because some people DESERVE pain (whether or not they do deserve it), but because they may not be able to be made whole without it.

Please do consider pretty much everything I say to be heavily imbued with metaphor, simile, etc. :wink: Sorry to have caused confusion with my own murkiness. Language itself is possible only because of our propensity for metaphor, and I tend to overuse metaphor, even so. :blush:

I think you’re absolutely right that God doesn’t torture people in order to change them. I do think though, that He sometimes has to use treatments that may, as a side effect or even as a primary therapeutic agent, involve pain. Not because He wants to torture them, but because the surgery. the purification, the maturation is in itself necessarily painful. I don’t subscribe to the unconsciousness definition of ‘death,’ though. But I may be wrong. There’s just not enough specificity on this topic in scripture, IMO. I think that if God magically matures and perfects us with no participatory part for us to play, that would make us into deterministic robots. I think we have to grow through the stages of maturity and that some of this experience has to occur in a state which seems to us to be at least partial separation from Him. Perhaps it occurs in ‘dreams’ as we are ‘dead,’ but to me that is much the same as seeing the process as actual waking experiences.

That said, the usual caveat: I could very well be mistaken. :slight_smile:

Blessings, Cindy

#12

So tell me… you who believe in this post-mortem “pain” — based ON your own experience in the here-and-now with God… what/how do you assess THAT pain to be, given you don’t believe it to be “physical pain”? IOW, assuming it must be some extension or possible intensification of the corrective-ness of God you have personally known/experienced already?… again assuming you’ve been in a position to have needed or experienced His correction.

#13

It seems to me that all of life involves God’s “correction” (aka teaching us to love). Do we achieve perfection in this life? For most of us, I think the answer is ‘no, we don’t.’ For SOME, the answer is ‘No friggin way!’ That correction/maturation has to happen at some point, Davo. What it will look like I don’t know, but I suspect that, as it does now, it will involve some degree of (as Jason puts it) inconvenience–particularly to those who may not be as willing as we ought to be to receive it.

#14

Yep I get that.

Yeah… why? God is God and God is love, we are not. Yes we benefit from His love and benefit from maturing in it, but even then HOW is this quantified to the point where there needs to comes some mystifying qualifying point whereby we pass from THIS APPARENT POST-MORTEM CHASTISING CORRECTION? I’m just NOT seeing this laid out so tenaciously clear in Scripture as those of you holding it, proclaiming it. And the apparent answers to this also seem so vague, in that such a thought has to be FIRST read into any text brought up to support such a notion. Case is point:

So again… IF such be so definitively true then how is it such is seemingly always surrounded by this vagueness?

Apologies Cindy if this seems a tad blunt. :open_mouth:

#15

Hi Cindy,
I truly appreciate your irenic posts.
In a sense, I can agree with you concerning God’s corrective measures with humanity. For instance, when Christ returns, He will judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren during their great tribulation of 3 & 1/2 year duration. Those “goat” nations will have to endure eonian chastening. How will He chasten them? First of all, He will withdraw from them the blessings of the glorious kingdom He will set up in Israel. The “sheep” nations who treated His brethren well will partake of those blessings. The “goat” nations will have to go through a figurative fire for that 1000 years (see Matthew 25:31-46). And yet, in spite of all that, when Satan is loosed at the ending of the 1000 years the nations will come to battle Christ and will be defeated. So the correction didn’t accomplish much, did it?

The believers of the nations are judged as to their deportment, now, in this life, so they won’t be condemned with the world (1 Cor.11:32). But God deals with all the sins of believers graciously.

Now that being said, it is my understanding, and I could be right about this, that the Christian is fully changed when he/she puts on immortality and INCORRUPTION (see 1 Cor.15). This does not make us mindless automatons. I am reminded of king Saul when he was seeking to destroy David. When Saul, in his hatred, went amongst some of the prophets, the spirit of God came upon him and he prophesied. He was a changed man at that point. However, the spirit did not remain on him and he reverted back to his hateful ways. Now when God is fully IN him, he will automatically be a changed man. When he too puts on immortality and INCORRUPTION, he will be fully changed. He did nothing to deserve this. Believers of the nations did nothing to deserve their change either. In fact, all mankind did nothing to deserve their change. However, we learn in Romans 5:18,19 that one Man did do something to effect a change in all mankind to take them from being made sinners due to Adam’s one act to being made righteous by Christ’s one act. We are not told that mankind is changed to be made right with God any other way. We must defer to the Scriptures and see that it is what Christ has accomplished which brings mankind to a right relationship with God.

As Colossians 1:20 shows us, it is through the blood of Christ’s cross which effects a change with all in the heavens and all on the earth. It is that which will cause all to drop their enmity to God and effect the necessary change needed.

It is my heartfelt prayer that Christians concentrate on what Christ did for all mankind and not what we do.

#16

Hey Cindy, to not be labeled as a yes man, Davo makes some good points.

Our position needs to be verifiable by scripture. If we believe!

#17

To me it is obvious that the Scriptures teach that there are two consequences to sin:

First, and by far the most important, is that insofar as we sin, we will not have the joy of the Holy Spirit filling our hearts. This of course is a continuum. No fallen man is perfectly righteous, and no man is utterly sinful. The more sin you have, the less joy. The less sin you have, the more joy.

Second, and clear even to a small child who has never so much as heard of the Bible, are the worldly consequences of sin. The most obvious example is perhaps that of the meth addict. If you commit the sin of taking meth, it can lead to meth addiction, and I think we have all seen photos of meth addicts. It’s not pretty.

I do not see any further consequences to sin taught in the Scriptures. I think the Orthodox Church and historic Protestantism are correct in rejecting Purgatory. I do not think there is any benefit to adopting a belief in post-mortem sufferings under any name whatsoever.

#18

Thanks Geoffrey :smiley:

#19

:smiley:

#20