The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Confused by "Hope Beyond Hell" and Free Will

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

[Edit]: just realized there is a very similar thread two or three spots below here, sorry!

I have been reading Hope Beyond Hell by Gary Beauchemin as I am trying to get a handle on UR from multiple sources. As I have mentioned before, I lean towards UR after the last few months, but am not totally convinced yet (though I am definetly open). I suppose we all have a few stumbling blocks.

I think Beauchmin does a nice succinct job of laying out the case for remedial judgment that is very convincing. However I am a bit turned off by his case against the “Free will clause” that so many, including myself, struggle with when wrestling with the claims of UR.

In HBH Beauchemin quotes author (supposedly a UR advocate) Loyal Hurley as saying:

Does UR really necessitate that God will bring about every calamity? If so I think I would have a great bit of trouble ever accepting it. Why would God kill a man’s wife (not coercive, but i would say cruel manipulation) to make him “seek the God he has neglected,” or at least to “change his attitude,” especially if God will save everyone… now if ECT or annihilation was more likely to be true, then i could perhaps entertain the thought that God might go “to all possible lengths” to insure the conversion of one in this lifetime (though I would likely still disagree).

In fact, this is an argument familiar to the lips of John Piper who says roughly “All calamities are judgments mixed with mercy.” Mercy, in the fact that it may turn someone to God when he kills their wife with cancer…which makes me wonder who God killed to convert the wife…or did He? Or perhaps he didn’t love the wife enough to do that…

I am open to UR, even if it means shifting slightly my stance on free will, but not if this is what it entails.

#2

Hello .andrew.

Though I am not a seasoned scholar of any prestigious university of theology, I can safely say this is neither a Universalist or Conditionalist exclusive understanding and therefore should not be a factor in whether one believes in a universalist or conditionalist doctrine concerning salvation (Soteriology), but does justify some of my reasonings on why Universalism is the correct view.

This how I understand it. God predetermined that by man’s will, moral evil would be perpetrated upon one another. The very fact that an omnipotent, omniscient God does not stop moral evil from being perpetrated on each other, despite have full awareness that it will indeed happen and the power to stop it from happening tells us that God indeed is responsible for the calamity which befalls us, even by the hands of others. As Paul quoted a secular poet and agreed, “In Him we live, and move and have our being.” and therefore reinforces the fact that concerning Soteriology, universalism is the only just and holy conclusion when faced with this fact.

Free-Will is a whole different ball game, I vigorously defend Freedom of Will but not concerning what we can do, but what we can think and believe (the Will) because there are things we are not free to do, even if we are free to think and believe it (the ability to carry out the Will).

#3

Simple answer; no it does not. I certainly do not believe that God sends calamities on anybody. I haven’t read Beauchemin, but I have not come across any other author who used that argument as part of a case for UR. You might find Tom Talbott’s “The Inescapable Love of God” helpful.

#4

Yep, I’m reading through Tom’s book right now and he’s extremely articulate and easy to follow, while making the best and clearest theological points for a view that doesn’t insult the reader at all, but uplifts one to believe that unconditional, all-powerful love is not only possible but the most plausible reality (at the very least if one accept scripture as truth).

In short, I don’t think any review could be glowing enough.

As for the OP, no. I don’t think that God brings the calamities our way, they’re just a natural result of the world being set up according to the nature of God. And since God’s nature is love, nothing but love is going to work in His universe. And yet love also desires to create beings which have the potential to voluntarily love back. Thus the disharmony, chaos and twistedness that are enabled to result. The fact that calamity leads us back to God I think is less the direct involvement of God or a positive attribute of calamity itself than it is just the unshakable tenaciousness of love and God’s nature dispersed throughout the universe.

As for how YHWH could say that He was bringing calamity against the Israelites, I believe that it was a statement that because of the nature of the universe that’s filled with God’s love, nothing but intentional love can work in it, thus the Israelites experienced calamity because of God’s nature being what it is. And since God is the very essence of existence and the life and breath in every lung, from a certain perspective it does seem as if the foreign nations that terrorized Israel were coming from God himself. This is how both the statement that “God permits this,” and “God brings this,” can be true at the same time. Because as far as God is concerned, His permitting something is an action… yet David makes the clear distinction that an actual direct action from God that results in judgment is much more merciful than that of a man’s, which proved to be true immediately afterward. (1 Chronicles 21:13-30)

#5

To an extent I would agree. But it all depends on what you mean by natural. What is natural for the state of our current situation in relation to God? I think by and large it has drifted away from God’s ideal state.

I believe that the cumilative effects of sin throughout the ages has brought us to the deplorable state that we are in, politically, economically, and environmentally. And I believe scripture supports this in Deuteromony 28:

*“And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.” - Deut 28:1-2 *

Here we have a promise of blessing from God, provided that hearken unto the commandments of God and obey them. This includes what the earth will bring forth:

“And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee. The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.” - Deut 28:11-12

But because of our greed, because of our carelessness, because we do not obey the commandments of God, in our homes, in our communities, in our nation, even as the collective world, we have invited the curse which has led us to our poverty:

“But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.” - Deut 18:15-19

Lest one think this only is applicable to Israel, and indeed it was, as they prepared to enter the Promised Land, there is evidence that this includes all of earth as Isaiah 24 seems to indicate:

*“Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.” - Isaiah 24:1-6 *

The solution to our problems is not to promote “Earth Day” in a vain attempt to reverse global warming, nor try and fix the economy by some fiscal means, nor bring peace to the world through diplomatic attempts. But the solution to all of our problems is to return obeying the Lord God and His commandments as a family, as a community, as a nation, as the world.

We are in this ‘natural’ state because we are under the curse of God unless we repent as a people. It’s the only way.Natural order is dependent on when we are in line with God’s Will, when everyone is cooperation to bring that Will to fruition, then God can begin to bless, not just because He is pleased with our obedience, but that that very obedience will also bring forth the blessing naturally.

#6

Hi Andrew, to my knowledge UR does not necessitate that God bring about every calamity. Rather, it seems to me that Adam’s and our sin brings about calamity. It was the sin of Adam that plunged us into what Paul calls “this present evil age” (Gal. 1:4). And thus calamity is now the “natural” order of things and it takes the blessing and covering of God to protect us all from such calamity. God in his love for us intervenes and mitigates some, much evil, but we are still by in large subject to such evil until we shed this mortal flesh and arise into newness of life in God. Of course, God is always there and when bad things happen to us, instinctually we turn to God as a means out of the evil or a means of coping with the evil. It’s an instinct I believe for we are all created in the image of God, created as children of God. And though children are raised not knowing their parents, there is always a desire deep down inside to know them. We are such children, born not knowing God our Father, the Spirit our Mother, and the Son our Brother! We are born with a God-sized hole in our hearts, a longing that just cannot be filled except through being reconciled, redeemed, restored in relationship to God!

Just logically and mathmatically speaking concerning human autonomy, I believe that such is very limited. Concerning the scope of our lives we have very limited autonomy. We do not choose: who we’re born to, when we’re born, what culture we’re raised in, what talents or gifts we might have, our IQ level, whether we’ll ever in this life receive a revelation of our Father or not, whether anyone will ever show us any love, etc. etc. etc. 99.9% of who we are is determined by factors completely beyond our control, our choice! So it really doesn’t make much sense to me to rest our ultimate destiny on the 0.1% that we do have “control” over. I mean, even that 0.1% is in large influenced by the 99.9% that is beyond our control.

And especially when it comes to relationship with God, for me it was the Revelation of the Lamb, the Atonement of Christ that gave me faith in Christ for my salvation. It wasn’t something I worked up, but something that grew in my heart once I had subconsciously received the seed of the Gospel. It was not a conscious decision, but a subconscious reception! Like a field that had been broken up by a plow, my heart was broken by circumstances and when I heard the Good News of God’s love, it fell on that broken up ground of my heart and grew into a living faith in God. It really wasn’t something I “chose”, but something that happened in me.

Anyhow, because of recognizing how very limited and even illusionary human autonomy is, and because of experiencing salvation as being chosen and not choosing, I don’t see human autonomy as very much of an obsticle to accepting in faith that God ultimately reconciles all of humanity to Himself through Christ!