Hello,
what are the arguments for one and the other
and what makes the purifying fire “win”?
Greetings
Dani
Dani,
I think the purifying fire purifies BECAUSE it consumes. It consumes that which is profane and leaves that which is holy. The question is whether there is anything holy to be left? I think there is always something holy. God created humankind in His own image, and that image, while defiled and perverted can never be altogether destroyed. In this life we can (by the power of the Spirit) develop into His image, or we can neglect and profane His image – but we cannot destroy His image. If the only thing that makes it through the fire is that spark of divine image, then that is what the person will have to build on. Some of us are blessed to believe in this life (some have not seen and yet have believed) and we will get a head start to the degree by which we’ve progressed. That doesn’t mean we’re better, but rather that we’re older and can help the younger ones along. I DO want to help the younger ones along, so I strive to be conformed into His image as much as I’m able. I hope, hope that I’ll be blessed to enter into the ministry of reconciliation to a greater and greater degree in this age and the age to come.
Love, Cindy
Consuming Fire destroys the whole person including body. This is for God’s enemies.
Purifying fire is for God’s children. It doesn’t completely destroy
Tormenting fire is the one that is in the Lake of Fire. This is God’s correction. The reprobate resist God’s correction and refuse to repent forever and ever.
Hi Dani
Cindy is spot on. And she’s in very good company. George MacDonald explains how the God who is a consuming fire is also the fire that purifies in his Unspoken Sermon ‘The Consuming Fire’, which begins thus:
Don’t for one second be taken in by that unscriptural Calvinist rubbish about the endless torment of the reprobate. It’s not in the Bible, and it’s not true.
Cheers
Johnny
Sorry Michael,
You got that wrong. There is only one fire and it does not destroy. How can you not understand that and believe in UR? And the LOF is not for that purpose. Forever and ever? Really? Time for you to go back to EU university.
The word torment is the greek word ‘basanos’ which means ‘a touchstone’ which is used to test the purity of precious metals. It has nothing to do with torture. it refers more to Cindy’s purity explanation.
If ‘all’ means ‘all’ then people ‘cannot’ be destroyed.
Yes when the word is talking about metals here’s the definition:
When it’s referring to people here’s the definition:
The correction in the Lake Of Fire is resisted by those who are there. They refuse to repent. Their sinning goes on forever and ever. Just as there are differing degrees of sin so there are differing degrees of torment.
What’s the definition, Michael, when referring to rowing?
Then He saw them straining (βασανιζομενους—basanizomenous—present passive participle of the same word) at rowing, for the wind was against them… (Mark 6:48)
Just as the verb means “to test metals” (“when talking about metals”), so does the basic concept of “test” come into every use of the word.
With the wind against them, it was quite a test for the disciples to be able to row.
Other examples:
But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed by the waves, for the wind was contrary. (Matt. 14:24)
The boat was tested by the waves. Would it remain intact, or would it break to pieces or submerge?
- (for by what that righteous man [Lot] saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds)… (2Pet. 2:8)*
Lot’s “soul” or “self”, that is, Lot himself, was tested by living among those evil people.
With this thought in mind, let’s consider the following translation of the king of proof texts for everlasting torment:
… and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tested day and night into the ages of ages. (Rev. 20:10)
Yes they will be tested, and continue to be tested until the test shows that they have repented, even if it takes ages of ages!
Paidon,
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger ; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. - Rev. 14:10
The full strength of God’s anger involves pain. Here we see the same fire:
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also ; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. - Rev. 20:10
The definition for these is:
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
God’s correction can be resisted. And it will be. The context here is eternity. Forever and ever.
No-one is saying the experience will be pleasant, but I thought we had already established that “forever and ever” meant age of the ages, not eternity. It seems you are trying to mix a little leaven with the loaf. This is and all or nothing thing Michael. There is no mixing new wine in old wine skins.
You can’t believe in universal salvation and destruction in the same breath.
You’re right. I do however think that universalism is better defended with other scriptures. I still believe that the fires of torment are corrective and not purifying. Universalism is better seen in these texts:
Everyone will eventually be saved through Christ and the blood after they receive their correction.
Cole, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with seeing the fire as punitive – but I would suggest that it is at the same time purifying. The purification is painful and it is given for the purpose of refinement, though I think a strong case can be made that it is also punitive and that this aspect is important, too.
Cindy’s point is well made. I only see one fire. It is both corrective and purifying. It couldn’t work any other way. But the purpose has always been that IMO. Why does it need to be any more? It’s a little like witnessing. When speaking to others about UR we don’t need to explain every little thing. If God is not drawing them, they won’t receive it. Move on to somebody else. Otherwise we end up over intellectualizing the matter. The best fruit of conversion comes from a willingness to repent and face up to the truth. The same with conversion from hell fire to UR. My experience was a supernatural one. I put it to you that theirs should be also. If you have to speak to them with such minutia then you have gone too far already.
I never defend UR. It is already established truth IMO. I make them defend ECT. The cracks in their arguments show up pretty quickly. In fact, many times when they demand an explanation from me, I say no. When asked why, I say they are not ready for it. The ground is still fallow. They are generally the smart-arses. Looking for a fight. Don’t engage them.
It is vitally important to choose carefully who we share these truths to because if they are not ready, it could harm them, and i have no intention of destroying another’s faith.
I don’t think God does anything to people for the purpose of penalizing them or getting revenge, or just wanting to see them suffer. God is LOVE. He wants people to be regenerated—changed completely, that is, corrected so that they can have the best life possible, both here and in the hereafter. ALL of God’s judgments are remedial. Penalizing people for breaking the law, or some system of rules is man’s doing.
See my signature statement below.
Nevertheless suffering because of things we have done – suffering punishment – IS therapeutic. Maybe you have a different reading of the Babylonian captivity than I do, but it definitely looks to me like the prophets at least believed this to be the punishment of God – for remediation.
I just read Cindy Skillman’s post of Nov. 20th and was delighted.
Hebrews 12:29 tells us that our God is a Consuming Fire.
This Fire (according to MacDonald) consumes that which is consumable so that only that which is in-consumable remains.
That which is in-consumable is eternal, the Good, therefore Divine, of God.
Those things which in this life God would use to bring us to Himself, but we would not, He amplifies in our death, in Hell, to accomplish His purpose; that we should be His children; that we should be restored to Him; that our relationship to Him and His to us be perfect.
Whether or not this shall be the case (universalism) is established to our individual and particular understanding according to our presuppositions and educations as to Who and What God Is. This has nothing to do with reality, only what our view of reality is.
In 1st John 4:8 and 16 we read that “God IS Love.” If we leave our denominational bent aside, if we begin to imagine the unimaginable magnitude of the Divine, if we can glimpse that Omnipotence cannot be forever tested or abused or frustrated by the finite, that God shall indeed become in practical experience that which He actually and eternally Is; that is to say, “All and in all,” the God Whose Love is the lens through which even Hell and damnation must be viewed-- If this God be very God, then His eventual Victory must be absolute, total, without even a single pocket of rebellion left. There will arrive a Day on the which all things which He has made shall be united with and to Him.
His is the power to crush, to destroy, to torture and make low, to burn without end. But He is no Omnipotent Demon, as One who could love desperately those sinners for whom Christ suffered and died and, then, at the moment of their deaths, put aside Love and become their worst Enemy, their eternal Nightmare, the Author not their of Salvation but of Endless and hideous Torments, wherein even the mercy of annihilation is withheld; as if the sins of the finite could ever reach the plane of the Infinite or to say, that is, that the worm might be able to offend the man, as if the worm were of the same stature, the same class, as the man.
As Ms. Skillman says, “…the purifying fire purifies BECAUSE it consumes;” and therein we see a vast difference between earthly and Divine fire. Namely, that with earthly fire, the closer one approaches the hotter the fire becomes, until it burns and ultimately destroys (for even in smelting the temperature must be controlled lest the fire vaporize even the gold, precious gems, and silver). Not so with the Divine Fire, the Consuming Fire, the Purifying Fire: With the Fire of God, the further one stands away from the Fire, the hotter it becomes. There were three men placed in the furnace, but four were seen–and thought the fire slew the men tending it for its heat was great, not a hair of their heads was singed; this was, as I think, the Divine Fire operating in a heathen kingdom.
So, then, if the further one is from the Consuming Fire the hotter it becomes, then Hell must be indescribable, our attempts to understand it or to describe it fail. But this great Fire is in some manner which is also incomprehensible to me, the Bosom; it is God’s heart of Love, working to effect in sinners that which His more gentle Hand could not, for they would not, in earthly life.
The best example in Scripture of this is the story in Luke of the wayward son. Like him, those in Hell shall (at once or eventually) be brought to their senses; “Why am I here? What profit is it to me to continue the loss of all things, the suffering, the despair and darkness… the torments? I shall go to my Father…”
And all of this speculation comes from a very dim perspective, knowing but little at best, surmising only that which the Scripture seems to indicate to me. In the details I am quite sure there is error, but not so in the main idea, which is the total reclamation, recovery, renewal of all things which shall surely come to pass in the great Victory which shall be Christ’s.
Dave
Dave,
Good post! Thanks. 
It is inevitable, as you mention, that we mortals will have some details (many, in my case!) wrong, nevertheless, Father’s unshakable and unfailing love is the bottom line. Once the heart is put right, the rest will follow.
Blessings, Cindy