There should be a professional service - where folks can pay for this!
If you ever run for political office Gabe - you have my vote.
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This might be a relevant article here, from todayâs Patheosâ Evangelical newsletter:
Let me quote a bit from it!
Each week, we submitted papers interacting with the assigned readings, followed by class discussions. I took these opportunities to refute the materialistic, non-Christian worldview of the authors we studied. A third of the way through the semester, McDermott had enough.
At the break, he rasped, âCome here. Follow me.â I obliged, trailing him until we left the building. I turned and he wasted no time. âYou are a Christian, right?â he asked. Now I knew why he called me outside. I was successful. I had shown him how well a Christian mind could engage God-ignoring philosophers. âYes,â I said, trying not to puff out my chest.âThen shouldnât you be humble?!â He continued, âWhy donât you first understand what you are reading and then criticize it?â
This emotional punch in the gut left me without breath to reply. It jarred my ears open to hear his admonition. He did not berate me. Rather, he was acting like a mentor, pounding into my head the literal meaning of âphilosophy,â i.e., âthe love of wisdom.â
Iâve yet to recover from that conversation outside of Heldenfels Hall. From that point, I began to listen and discover that we can gain insight from anyone, even if they are atheists or heretics. I learned the value of taking another personâs perspective.
Itâs all a matter of perspective! 
@Invernessian Well Im guessing I made some valid points in that argument then, as you didnât detest them. Lecture/debate - doesnât really matter imo.
âOut of the blue.â Donât be afraid to get comments back at you if you are giving them out in the first place. And honestly, I have never seen the importance of memory scripture if we have various translation errors and such. You may do as you wish, but I feel as though we are at very different ends in relation to biblical interpretation. I feel like we are reading totally different bibles.
Yes, that is exactly what they were doing. Paul, the apostles, Jesus, they were all jews. Jews were using scripture to see if what someone was saying was factual or not.
Also, @Agnostic_Gabe and @Invernessian sorry if I am heated. But, Im tired of people saying that we need to just have faith and believe. My belief in Hell changed when I put the breaks on and thought about what I was believing. I wenât in deep to figure out the Truth and was much better off afterwards. For MANY Christians nowadays, the belief in Hell is some mystical thing that we are just to believe in, and that we canât explain. Christians just accept this âfact.â I say nay.
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Sometimes God intervenes for a specific task or purpose which Calvinists make the mistake of projecting onto everything. So using Pharaoh as a catalyst in a limited venue for a singular purpose does not override or contradict Godâs overall desire to see the wicked repent.
Very likely Luke knew about Gen 11.12 therefore he probably chose to be more precise then the Gen 11 description which may have skipped generations in calling a direct male descendant âson.â
The former is literal and the latter is symbolic so these verses donât contradict.
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And that is the rub. For myself, I rely on reason and common sense, but you all may see it different. so be it.
Well of course God could do whatever he wants except that He has his own legal/moral principals. But again at least as I understand it God hardened Pharaohâs heart for a purpose , not because of capriciousness and that purpose was more important then Pharaohâs free will. Many people think Pharaoh hardened his own heart because they canât believe God would overide someoneâs free will but Paul equates God with the potter who shapes the clay. These kind of events seem to be few and far between.
Dear Qaz: we have a real problem if, with our finite imperfect minds, we try to dissect and question Godâs actions and judgment. We are made in His image but that does not mean we have His mind or any of His attributes, especially love.
Romans 11:34-36 (TLB)
34 For who among us can know the mind of the Lord? Who knows enough to be his counselor and guide? 35 And who could ever offer to the Lord enough to induce him to act? 36 For everything comes from God alone. Everything lives by his power, and everything is for his glory. To him be glory evermore.
Who do we think we are?
What verses indicate this happens often?
Indeed these donât contradict at all, though there are alternatives explanations to the standard evangelical take that clings to the literal UNTIL it doesnât suit and THEN the spiritual approach touted.
I think the most serious discrepancy may be found in the contrasting descriptions of Godâs character.
In the Old Testament, God is described as having ordered His people to destroy an entire nation, including women, children and babies.
It is written in Isaiah that God threatened to punish the people of the world, one of which ways is to have their infants dashed to pieces and their wives raped before their eyes. (Isaiah 13: 11-16)
On the other hand, Jesus, who is the exact image of Godâs essence (Heb:3) never killed babies or arranged for peopleâs wives to be raped or ordered his disciples to do kill anyone. He also described God as one who is kind to ungrateful people and to evil people (Luke 6:35).
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Youâre making the mistake qaz of pushing an argument, i.e., your rationale, which takes no appreciation for context and subject relative to which the texts you quote relate.
Ezekielâs words were not glib global statements⌠just read the text as it shows you that âthe wickedâ wasnât indiscriminate universal humanity in toto, no â âthe wickedâ constituted Godâs own covenant people, i.e., disobedient Israel. THATâS why He took⌠âno pleasure in the one who dies â but that they would turn and liveâ
Ezek 18:30-32 âTherefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,â says the Lord God. âRepent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,â says the Lord God. âTherefore turn and live!â
Ezek 33:10-11 âTherefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: âThus you say, âIf our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?ââ Say to them: âAs I live,â says the Lord God, âI have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?â
Yea I would definitely agree with you on that. They seem so distant from one another.
I have a couple of running theories on the matter, but they probably need a fair bit of work. I considered that God had established a contract between himself and the Hebrews. God was to show his glory and power, by raising up a people that were the lowliest of all the nations. In effect, to show that power he would need to demonstrate strength through his people. Through many, many years of warning other nations, if they did not comply then he would demonstrate the need to protect the chosen ones.
Another theory is that there is a purpose to having both good and evil in the world. Ecclesiastes 3 is the basis of that. If there is no evil in the world, are we really all that good? Maybe there is a natural amount of homeostasis going on for a reason. Not sure. Do you have any theories?
Always the Old Testament. Stirs up trouble between us because we havenât learned how to read it yet.
I wouldnât have thought⌠BUT again, the texts you site to purport such notions as you keep raising DO NOT say as you keep trying to imply, i.e., a text out of context is but a pretext for a subtext.
Yes very insightful point Paidion. Jesus did say in John that he came to reveal the Father which may suggest that the Father had not been revealed before, meaning in the OT? An apparently odd thing to say since Jesus referenced the OT many many times.
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Given your disbelief in the Exodus story it is little wonder your complaints make little sense⌠and thus your errant readings of Paul.
This has nothing to do with an individualâs salvation which you are not making a distinction for. Whether itâs Pharaohâs heart or choosing Jacob over Esau these are examples of God picking someone for his particular purposes. It does not mean Esau or Pharaoh were not saved later on.
BTW Iâm giving the same argument i gave you for angels re Exodus which Jesus certainly believed in,because Exodus he referenced it and Moses many times as well as angels. So if you donât believe Jesus on these things , i donât know why you would believe him about God?
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