The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Contradictions: OT V OT

My friend, after much repeating of what I mean by my verbiage, this seems to come down to repeating a dozen times your contingent definition of my word, and insisting that I must use IT, even though that definition makes no sense to me, and is not what I intended to assert. So it just feels like a standoff about my (apparently limited) vocabulary.

I think a better approach to another person’s stated view would begin by working with his words as he defines and intends them, and then offering a critique of his actual claim.

(FWIW my studies in UCLA’s philosophy department were most influenced by analytic philosophy and logical positivism, with our big name there being prof Rudolph Carnap). But the trend among most professors of philosophy was to find it a meaningless word game. The debates about how to construe terms became so endless that it became out of favor, and today there are no Carnap progeny at UCLA. While philosophy is inevitably much concerned with clarification of words, my bias is that the best way to unambiguous clarity is to speak as much as possible with the definitions of ordinary understood usage, and that if no regular folk can follow your words & reasoning, it’s smuggling something in.)

…and isn’t that pretty much where you philosophy hacks have lead this discussion? :thinking:

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Of course Davo, but don’t be jealous of all the vain fun we’re having :slight_smile:

Lol… of course, it’s way outside my pay-grade :wink:

It is quite a coincidence that I did exactly that at the start of this exchange in post #150 above, using the exact terminology of Paidion: “the person could not do otherwise than what is foreknown.” Look where that got us! So, I cannot accept that this suggestion of yours is going to get us anywhere. But, hey, feel free to put your argument into your words and see what comes of it.

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It will be a help if, in making the argument using ‘normal words’ - that they are explained in unambiguous terminology. Say what ‘free will’ is, say what ‘foreknowledge’ is and say who ‘god’ is - and what is meant by ‘omniscience’ ‘omnipotence’ or whatever special theological words - just as confusing as philosophical words!! - will be used. Otherwise we will just be talking past each other. We’ve seen that a hundred times on this forum.
$.02

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So, you believe that though God foreknows that you will do A at time T, it is possible that you choose not to do A at time T.

Okay, let’s say that you carry out your choice, and do not do A at time T. Yet God knew prior to time T that you would do A at that time. Do you see any contradiction yet?

You must look at the entire paragraph in its context to understand what I said. Here is the entire paragraph, from post 150, with its context.

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There are two ways of looking at your claim: “the person could not do otherwise than what is foreknown.” Both show your claim to be false.

Premise 1: If God foreknows you will do A, then it could not be otherwise that you will do A.
Premise 2: God foreknows you will do A.
Conclusion: It could not be otherwise that you will do A.

But this is erroneous. Just because God foreknows you will do A, it does not follow deductively that it could not be otherwise that you will do A. The claim ”it could not be otherwise that you will do A” is a necessary proposition, a proposition that is impossible to be false. But God also foreknows contingent propositions, propositions that are possibly false. So, just because God foreknows a proposition, it does not follow deductively that such a proposition is a necessary one. So, Premise 1 is false.

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See, the issue is simply one of an inappropriate deduction, which makes premise 1 false, which causes your argument to fail.

You got to freaking quit that stuff, you have the ability to either be part of the solution or part of the problem. :wink:

Shucks, as I made clear to Gabe, my view of free will is 180 degrees from Paidion’s. It’s only my own view and words (that I spelled out 12x) that I can defend (or invite critique).

If you’re content to avoid critiquing mine by just insisting that my own words have to mean a view I reject (and instead mean what you believe), that’s a maneuver you’re ‘free’ to choose :wink:

Hey, it’s not all about you! (Hah, I love the opportunity to say that.) In your post I was responding to, you simply said, “that person’s words as he defines and intends them, and then offering a critique of his actual claim.”

You didn’t specify that you were that person, so, that person I chose was Paidion, since I already did respond to his claim in the way you stated. But I wasn’t meaning to omit any claim of yours from consideration, though I can’t promise I will consider it.

LOL After dozens of frustrating exchanges with you over the meaning of my own “stated views” and “words,” you assumed my plea that you engage what was actually intended, was asking you to deal with Paidion’s claims.

Thank you for underestimating the vanity of my obsession with myself :slight_smile:

Well, it was easy to assume that since I had already engaged what he said.

Quite funny! You are most welcome.

I have to say it Bob… this is not a-typical of the circular minutia you create when you feel pushed into a corner. :partying_face:

I think when I initially came to the forum, I observed folks debating their positions on terms - without defining them first. I find analytical philosophy and logical positivism, to be “scraping the bottom of the barrel” - IMHO.

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Chad to Bob!

Well, I’ll wait and say it - when Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) finally arrives.

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The “yolks” on you, Dave. :rofl:

Egg on my face, certainly…

Thanks for your careful and easy to comprehend analysis of my intellectual prowess :slight_smile:

Bob to Davo.

We need a song, in order to visualize this. :crazy_face: