The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Cry of Justice... poll&discussion

[Mod note: this and several subsequent posts were ported over from a prior thread on the question of whether [url=https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/is-accepting-jesus-a-sufficient-condition-of-being-saved/4972/1]accepting Jesus is a sufficient condition of being saved. ]

Thanks for the clarification, Jason.

And, great you mentioned CoJ, and “Portunista” (which I have nicknamed myself). CoJ, and this character specifically, has been one of major things in my life, presently, that has helped to change my attitude and perspective to one of letting go of resentment, and taking personal responsibility for myself and my actions.

Naturally you might not want to talk about a lot of that openly, 'ista. :slight_smile: But Sonia and Cindy have both read pretty far if you want some motherly-hearted women to talk to about what you’re getting out of that book. (Very possibly I wouldn’t be appropriate myself! – but if you thought so, you could pm me about whatever you wanted to talk about. No pressure.)

Interestingly, I don’t really conceive of Portunista as someone who has trouble taking responsibility for her actions – on the contrary she’s so strong in that regard (which isn’t inherently a bad thing) that one of her besetting temptations is to pervert that responsibility into tyranny and resentment, over against the responsibility of other people, and treating their active responsibilities as being essentially a competitive threat to her.

Which by no coincidence, is typically how the demons operate and think of active responsibility, too. (And Artabanus. And Bomas in a somewhat different way.)

The characters who have trouble taking serious responsibility for their actions are Gaekwar and Seifas, each in somewhat different ways. Gaekwar has fine intuitions about justice, but uses his pain as an excuse to avoid accepting as much personal responsibility as possible. Paradoxically, that means he has to exercise some personal responsibility as a commander (which he’s fairly talented at) in order to avoid being saddled with all kinds of responsibility as a minor soldier! (Plus obviously he comes from a wealthy and privileged background despite his chosen nomme de guerre, or however the French spell it. :wink: He isn’t about to just give up the best standard of living possible in a situation. I’ll be putting that more to the test in Book 4.)

Seifas has painfully strong notions of personal responsibility, and doesn’t realize yet how hard he tries to dodge personal responsibility to protect himself from the pain of responsibility. That’s going to result in a tragedy soon. (After which his natural temptation will be to leap off that horse on the other side. Again, on plan for Book 4.)

What Portunista does need to learn about insisting on her rights and responsibilities, is that other people are affected by her responsibilities – which she already knows, because she intentionally tries to affect other people in her favor – in ways which she wouldn’t want to be affected herself. Which she also kind-of knows, but at the moment she thinks of that as being a reason to competitively protect herself. Do unto others before they do unto you. :laughing: She starts to learn a little sympathy for people who pay for her choices in CoJ, but she has a long way to go on that, especially after hardening her heart again against being hurt again at the end (of the main narrative in CoJ, not her contemplations several years later.)

I hope that doesn’t cause problems with relating to her for purposes of your own positive growth; but I thought I ought to head off a potential problem at the pass: there are truly horrible ways to insist on personal responsibility, too.

Though you’re quite right if what you mean is that she shirks moral responsibility! – but she shirks that as a factor of what she sees as competing personal responsibilities trying to enslave her. She intentionally misreads one kind of threat (the glorious kind) as the other kind of threat (the horrible kind that legitimately ought to be fought – but not by turning into the horrible kind of threat herself! :unamused: )

Well, I could type out thematics all night. :ugeek:

Yes, I agree. And, I see that I didn’t make myself clear. What I meant, is that I was inspired by her (though she has her downfalls). Actually, the view of women portrayed in the book was very different and inspiring. At first, I had some trouble with it. I think I had a very warped view of women in leadership roles before reading CoJ… so that was particularly challenging at first.

Now, I did resonate with Seifas’ irresponsibility and the desire to protect himself from the pain of taking on that responsibility. At the same time, I felt I was able to identify with Portunista’s lack of sympathy for others affected by her choices and some what manipulative tendencies. I think I see myself as a spilt between Portunista and Seifas, although, that might be hard to imagine. I certainly won’t come across “Portunita-like” to other people, but, trust me, we have lots in common :slight_smile:

Additionally, many of the themes in the book - particularly love & justice - really shattered other broken/distorted views I had, and re-inforced/cemented/complemented concepts about L&J I was already beginning to see. (If you remember, I had a specific thread here on the topic of love, where I was sharing new personal insights). Acquiring a new perspective of Love, has probably been the biggest paradigm shift I have experienced in my life thus far).

But, anyway, there is a thread here where I could and ought to post more, but, I admit I have been hesitant. I’ve read the book, and, I have started over. My nephew and I read a few pages each night (though, some times I have to let him skip over bulks of it).

Well, yes, I can imagine several chapters he should be kept away from for a while… :laughing:

Yes, we seem to have taken over the thread in our own pocket conversation… :blush: I can try porting relevant posts back over to the other thread…?

Hm! Personally I worry that people will come away thinking that I mean women shouldn’t be in leadership roles because they’ll mess them up horribly; there is plenty of evidence to the contrary in CoJ but it tends to be muffled by 'ista (the main protagonist and the woman with 90% of the attention and dialogue) being often villainous, even though not nearly so much as the three leading men she’s opposing! But I don’t mean women would be inherently less evil as evil leaders than men either, of course. :unamused: :laughing: (Though Praxi-Gamin, Bomas, and Arty, all represent ways she could potentially go much farther into villainy.)

I really don’t have anything to say about women as women being leaders, other than that they can be good and bad leaders just like men. Bad leaders shouldn’t lead, or should work at getting morally better, regardless of their gender. That’s stunningly unoriginal, but I suppose it can answer radicals on either side who think only men should lead because they’re men, or who think women would always be better leaders because they’re women and not men. :confused:

I suppose there’s possibly a difference between being a competent leader and being a good leader . . . and it sounds like you’re talking about people being moral and competent leaders as opposed to being merely competent leaders. ‘Ista takes care of and cares about her people for all her moral failings in other directions. Not as much as Jian would have her care, but certainly better in any case than the other leaders in the story. Much better than Lewis’ Jadis (queen of Charn), who sees her people as mere objects to obtain her desires and not really as people at all. I really think that Portunista is probably better than the nation she portrays was toward the more vulnerable members of her group, and better later than she was earlier. But it’s been a bit since I read the first book and maybe I’m forgetting some things or misinterpreting some things.

Then you might argue that there’s no indication that Jadis leads her people at all. She merely has the power to exploit them. To be a truly competent leader, maybe you have to be at least a good enough person to care about your people in general (if only for logistical reasons). Or at the very minimum, to care about those in your inner circle – those who make things happen for you. Just throwing this out there . . . not sure what I’m aiming at here, just musing on the whole leadership thing.

True, yes I meant morally good not competently good – though an incompetent but moral leader will have their own problems. (Seifas: painfully moral, rubbish so far as a leader. :slight_smile: )

It would be an interesting project to go back and check to what extent Portunista cared about her people before Jian shows up and leavens things for a whole seasonal sloping (the Mikonese equivalent of a month, or 40 days). One of my ideas was that Portunista had gone as far as she could as a leader without significantly growing, and naturally in her mind ‘growing’ meant ‘finding some way to get personally more powerful’.

I don’t think I ever explicitly thought, however, about the degree to which 'ista cared for her people vs. them being a means to her advancement.

I did explicitly think a lot about the latter. In the future she’s awfully harsh about her intentions, and in the Macro Fight Sequence before she figures out how to activate the mass defense system she comes to criticize her previous attitude toward her troops which, as described, falls hard into what we might call Jadis territory. BUT – on the other hand she deserves credit for gathering together enough troops and civilian support to form a small brigade of four companies. They may be dispirited when Jian shows up, and I meant that to be largely thanks to her attitude – 30+ years later the archery sergeant and Kris Vivitar talk about how she often seemed like a Rogue up there in her command tent scheming to get ahead, but they wanted her to be better than that. Similarly, a significant part of Seifas’ initial depression is due to his disappointment over Portunista not being a proper replacement for his vanished Matron Cami; a disappointment she was actively fostering in order to undermine his moral principles in a despairing way so that she could still make use of his combat abilities without worrying so much about whether he would stage a coup or flat out assassinate her for not living up to his moral expectations. (Not incidentally, she starts running a similar plan against Jian in Book 2!)

Even so, the troops weren’t staying around out of fear of leaving her, unlike with Arty, Praxi, or even Gemalfan. So she had to be not only competently leading them (like Arty), but also caring for them to some significant degree that they could detect and appreciate.

Part of the narrative design is that by having earned greater loyalty from them by caring more morally for them, her resolution at the end of CoJ to protect herself at the expense of accepting Jian – who by now is effectively accepted by the people as their representative at command level – puts her on a collision course against her own people by proportion. (This is obviously one of many points where the analogy of 'ista == Israel breaks down, but then again I’m not writing an allegory so there. :wink: On the other hand, the leadership of Israel damn well meant to be regarded as Israel, for better or for worse, so maybe the analogy still fits. :laughing: :ugeek: )