Dating outside the faith

[JaelSister]

my girlfriend of 2.5 years (where has the time gone!) is not a Christian. she frankly thinks it’s all rubbish. however, she grew up in a Catholic home, and then rebelled and became a punk…and even for a time a practicing Pagan of some description (haven’t gotten into that really, as she thinks that was rubbish too).
she seems to subscribe partially to the idea that our consciousness joins the universe, in a sort of Philip Pullman kind of way (His Dark Materials author), and that we fertilise the ground when we die.

that being said, she’s always been very supportive of my faith. she has even urged me to go to church. she’s open to discussions and things, and morally we’re pretty much in agreement on everything.

also she has been a blessing to me, a real God send (something i’ve told her). she’s a treasure, and the fact we don’t agree on theology at this point is not the biggest deal. if i’m right, we’ll end up together forever, and if she’s right it doesn’t matter. either way, we make it everything it can be in this present time!

i grew up with the idea that being “unequally yoked” was Christian/non-Christian relationships. i’ve since come to think that that is a narrow perception. also, to be culturally relevant, it appeared that if someone got saved, they often brought their household with them (you will be saved, you and your household, wherever that’s from)…so it seems a bit at odds with that that we’re suddenly being told to avoid non-Christians.

i appreciate that there can be difficulties and risks, but relationships ALWAYS have difficulties and risks. i’ve seen good and bad examples of all kinds of relationships, and the common denominators in the good ones seem to be maturity and acceptance and love, not necessarily theology.

Sounds like she’s really lucky to have you

I’m kind of with you there. I think many of the scriptures are much more interesting and complicated than what is commonly taught

[JaelSister]

Jael,

On top of all the other excellent advice (which I agree with), I’ll take the opportunity to remind as I usually do when this topic comes up: none of us would have any hope at all of being saved if God hadn’t chosen to “court” and “marry” unbelievers. So it can’t be intrinsically a sin to do so.

Still, the whole point to a warning about unequal oxen is that the stronger ox will die a tortured and protracted death for the sake of the weaker ox. You should look toward deciding (sooner or later) if he’s worth that risk to you personally, and if God actually is calling you to die for his sake particularly (if it comes to that).

(I take dating very seriously as a sort of try-out process for marriage, so I’m assuming from your request you aren’t just talking about casual dating, but about dating that might feasibly go somewhere perhaps.)

I would have married my most beloved if there hadn’t been other factors involved, even if she wasn’t yet a Christian; but of course one of the first and rather important issues there is “what kind of wedding would it be?!” I would want a religious marriage, but I wouldn’t have wanted her to perjure herself (even before other people but especially before God) by professing what she doesn’t believe, or even by participating in a sacramental relationship when she can’t believe what’s being claimed about that sacramentality to be true. But if I agree to a marriage “less” than that, then what am I doing? I would have sacramentally given myself for her sake anyway (and did do so anyway as far as I was allowed), so I would have looked for a way to do that in a fashion that left her room to not be falsely professing something she didn’t believe but also to grow into that relationship (or into a recognition of that relationship insofar as it was happening even from her side but she didn’t realize it yet). But it couldn’t help but be problematic, and not only for me but for my Christian family at least. (Maybe for her family, too, who although they grew up socially Christian I understood to be rather lapsed at best.)

Still, I’m glad things are going well so far. You sound rather smitten with him, too. Just count the cost, which of course is what you’re already doing. I hope things work out for you both, whichever way that would best be.

Thank you Jason for your usual erudite post. You always give me fresh angles to think of.

It’s early days yet, so not serious. But on the whole, I take it seriously, because I don’t want to waste someone’s time or play with their emotions. Hence why I’m pondering these thoughts now rather than later down the line.

It’s moving to hear you call someone you’re not with, your beloved.
Your post blessed me again! Cheers!

[JaelSister]

Here’s what happened to me: I met a non believer and we clicked unlike most people that I have ever met in life. But the view of the Bible on sexuality caused her to step back and ask herself if she could be celibate with me (and perhaps: for how long?)…
It really hurts, but this is a very practical issue: can they abstain? Will they give in and tempt you? Will you give in because the intimacy is offered (they may think that you are changing your views when actually you just want to be intimate at that time).
It takes an IRON WILL!!!
That’s a really practical matter
roof

Thanks for the heads up practicality Roof!

I’m not 100% sure I think the typical church teaching on virginity before marriage is a set morality. OT wise, it seems as though women could only sleep with one man while he was living. And guys could sleep with whoever they wanted, providing she wasn’t bound to another man. NT Paul sounds as though he thinks only purpose for marriage is to contain lust!

I definitely think sexuality is for love, not just lust. But not sure yet if I’m bound by God to only exist in that way in a legal ceremony. Not saying that I’m not, but I’m just figuring it out

[JaelSister]

Dear JaelSister,

I have been partnered with a “non-believer” for 19 years now. He is a beautiful soul and is way more of a “Christian” than most Christians I’ve met. His “issue” with Christianity is due to that fact that as a child he went to FIVE different churches all claiming to have “the Truth” and if one didn’t believe in THAT particular church, well, they were headed for hell or annihilation. So as a child he figured that religion was man made and not of God. I will say he is a much better witness as he lives his life by the Sermon On The Mount by Emmett Fox circa 1934. Yes, it has it’s challenges, but I wouldn’t trade him for anyone else!!! He is a good, kind, compassionate soul and does not understand all the “hate” that is propagated by churches. My very, very humble opinion is, get to KNOW the guy… I found a gem outside of the faith and then found out he LIVES more of Christ’s teachings without pronouncing it… it’s just part of his soul. I would venture to guess, that he will be in the Kingdom as a first fruit because he treats others with such love and compassion. He has taken very good care of me the last three years while I have been so sick. Ok, so maybe it would have been MORE ideal IF he admitted that there was more than The Universe out there, but again, his heart IS in the right place… ALWAYS!

Just MY experience is all, take what you want and leave the rest behind.

Blessings and peace,
Bret

Brett, thank you so much for your moving story. Thank you for being willing to expose such a personal area of yourself. It brought tears to my eyes!

Maybe it is areas like these that really deserve the phrase “god works in mysterious ways”. Your man sounds like he has a heart crafted by God, even if he doesn’t yet know it.

Incidentally, church treatment of gay people was one of the catylists that had me studying my faith in-depth, eventually leading to UR. It just made zero sense to me. My gay brothers and sisters have loved and accepted me more than many others. Maybe your relationship is such a gift from God because you also know firsthand how to love someone as they are, and are acutely aware of the dangers of judging that which you don’t understand.

Bless you bro!

[corpselight]

my girlfriend of 2.5 years (where has the time gone!) is not a Christian. she frankly thinks it’s all rubbish. however, she grew up in a Catholic home, and then rebelled and became a punk…and even for a time a practicing Pagan of some description (haven’t gotten into that really, as she thinks that was rubbish too).
she seems to subscribe partially to the idea that our consciousness joins the universe, in a sort of Philip Pullman kind of way (His Dark Materials author), and that we fertilise the ground when we die.

that being said, she’s always been very supportive of my faith. she has even urged me to go to church. she’s open to discussions and things, and morally we’re pretty much in agreement on everything.

also she has been a blessing to me, a real God send (something i’ve told her). she’s a treasure, and the fact we don’t agree on theology at this point is not the biggest deal. if i’m right, we’ll end up together forever, and if she’s right it doesn’t matter. either way, we make it everything it can be in this present time!

i grew up with the idea that being “unequally yoked” was Christian/non-Christian relationships. i’ve since come to think that that is a narrow perception. also, to be culturally relevant, it appeared that if someone got saved, they often brought their household with them (you will be saved, you and your household, wherever that’s from)…so it seems a bit at odds with that that we’re suddenly being told to avoid non-Christians.

i appreciate that there can be difficulties and risks, but relationships ALWAYS have difficulties and risks. i’ve seen good and bad examples of all kinds of relationships, and the common denominators in the good ones seem to be maturity and acceptance and love, not necessarily theology.

Sounds like she’s really lucky to have you

I’m kind of with you there. I think many of the scriptures are much more interesting and complicated than what is commonly taught

thanks
lol i may have to remind her of this

[WE_ARE_ALL_BROTHERS]

It’s early days yet, so not serious. But on the whole, I take it seriously, because I don’t want to waste someone’s time or play with their emotions. Hence why I’m pondering these thoughts now rather than later down the line.

Jael, I was actually going to post this, but I’m glad you beat me to it If I may reinforce it without offending, please be very mindful of his emotional investment in you. It would be unfair (cruel even) to continue dating if you think you’re inevitably going to break it off. You’ve already said he seems besotted, which worries me. I really don’t wish to mope on about my own “suffering” here, but this essentially happened to me (although it was with very unusual circumstances) and honestly, it destroyed my faith, my work and my personality. I’m not saying do this or that. I just implore you to (continue to) be sensitive and merciful to a brother of mine/ours.

[Eric_Fry]

While I still am not sure, I haven’t heard a response to William Lane Craig’s comment:
“Look, then, at what Paul says: “Do not be mismated with unbelievers” (v. 14). What could be clearer?”

Read more: reasonablefaith.org/marrying … z1tKvYkyWq

Does the term “mismated” in 2Cor 6 settle the issue? Is Dr. Craig right when he says “what could be clearer”?
Any takes? Let’s keep it exegetical, not emotional, I beg of you!
roof

Since we’re being exegetical here, Mr Craig’s translation of heterozygountes as “mismated” is probably not exegesis, but eisegesis. The argument could be made, from extant Gk. writings, that Paul could be referring to fellowship or communion with unbelievers, since Paul did not use the word for ‘marriage’ in this text, “gamos” which also is the proper term for use as ‘mate’ and ‘mated.’ Fundamentalists love to narrow down the meaning of a foreign word (even when such an equivalent translated word does not exist) to further their eisegesis of a particular verse of scripture. Frankly, I submit that Mr. Craig is simply full of BS in much of his exegesis and hermeneutics in this example. Just because someone has some degrees and a position at an “accredited” university, doesn’t mean that someone isn’t propagating their own personal agenda.

[JaelSister]

It’s early days yet, so not serious. But on the whole, I take it seriously, because I don’t want to waste someone’s time or play with their emotions. Hence why I’m pondering these thoughts now rather than later down the line.

Jael, I was actually going to post this, but I’m glad you beat me to it If I may reinforce it without offending, please be very mindful of his emotional investment in you. It would be unfair (cruel even) to continue dating if you think you’re inevitably going to break it off. You’ve already said he seems besotted, which worries me. I really don’t wish to mope on about my own “suffering” here, but this essentially happened to me (although it was with very unusual circumstances) and honestly, it destroyed my faith, my work and my personality. I’m not saying do this or that. I just implore you to (continue to) be sensitive and merciful to a brother of mine/ours.

I always would. That’s why I’m thinking this now, before I see him again. If I see no future with him because of faith, there would be no point seeing him in that context again. That’s why I wanted opinions of others with no vested interest, so that I can’t just go with my personal feelings instead of what’s right.

I’ve had my own feelings jerked about before, majorly. I wouldn’t do that to someone else

[roofus]

While I still am not sure, I haven’t heard a response to William Lane Craig’s comment:
“Look, then, at what Paul says: “Do not be mismated with unbelievers” (v. 14). What could be clearer?”

Read more: reasonablefaith.org/marrying … z1tKvYkyWq

Does the term “mismated” in 2Cor 6 settle the issue? Is Dr. Craig right when he says “what could be clearer”?
Any takes? Let’s keep it exegetical, not emotional, I beg of you!
roof

Since we’re being exegetical here, Mr Craig’s translation of heterozygountes as “mismated” is probably not exegesis, but eisegesis. The argument could be made, from extant Gk. writings, that Paul could be referring to fellowship or communion with unbelievers, since Paul did not use the word for ‘marriage’ in this text, “gamos” which also is the proper term for use as ‘mate’ and ‘mated.’ Fundamentalists love to narrow down the meaning of a foreign word (even when such an equivalent translated word does not exist) to further their eisegesis of a particular verse of scripture. Frankly, I submit that Mr. Craig is simply full of BS in much of his exegesis and hermeneutics in this example. Just because someone has some degrees and a position at an “accredited” university, doesn’t mean that someone isn’t propagating their own personal agenda.

Thanks for the reply, Eric-
What do you mean by "
“The argument could be made, from extant Gk. writings, that Paul could be referring to fellowship or communion with unbelievers.”
Being a man that doesn’t go by “bald assertions”, and is wary of those that feel the need to add “what could be clearer?” in speaking to those that differ vs. simply making their arguments, I must ask where it is that said “extant Gk. writings” are to be found? and what do you mean by “fellowship” or “communion”?

By the way, my emotions want you to be right in the matter. But my conscience demands a great certainty with backup…
Take care, and remember: “I respect what you have to say, whether I will but it or not!”
roof

[roofus]

Here’s what happened to me: I met a non believer and we clicked unlike most people that I have ever met in life. But the view of the Bible on sexuality caused her to step back and ask herself if she could be celibate with me (and perhaps: for how long?)…
It really hurts, but this is a very practical issue: can they abstain? Will they give in and tempt you? Will you give in because the intimacy is offered (they may think that you are changing your views when actually you just want to be intimate at that time).
It takes an IRON WILL!!!
That’s a really practical matter
roof

Thanks for the heads up practicality Roof!

I’m not 100% sure I think the typical church teaching on virginity before marriage is a set morality. OT wise, it seems as though women could only sleep with one man while he was living. And guys could sleep with whoever they wanted, providing she wasn’t bound to another man. NT Paul sounds as though he thinks only purpose for marriage is to contain lust!

I definitely think sexuality is for love, not just lust. But not sure yet if I’m bound by God to only exist in that way in a legal ceremony. Not saying that I’m not, but I’m just figuring it out

Jael, I encourage you to stay submitted (or strive to become submitted) to the teachings of God on these issues. I’ll try as well.

[JaelSister]

Here’s what happened to me: I met a non believer and we clicked unlike most people that I have ever met in life. But the view of the Bible on sexuality caused her to step back and ask herself if she could be celibate with me (and perhaps: for how long?)…
It really hurts, but this is a very practical issue: can they abstain? Will they give in and tempt you? Will you give in because the intimacy is offered (they may think that you are changing your views when actually you just want to be intimate at that time).
It takes an IRON WILL!!!
That’s a really practical matter
roof

Thanks for the heads up practicality Roof!

I’m not 100% sure I think the typical church teaching on virginity before marriage is a set morality. OT wise, it seems as though women could only sleep with one man while he was living. And guys could sleep with whoever they wanted, providing she wasn’t bound to another man. NT Paul sounds as though he thinks only purpose for marriage is to contain lust!

I definitely think sexuality is for love, not just lust. But not sure yet if I’m bound by God to only exist in that way in a legal ceremony. Not saying that I’m not, but I’m just figuring it out

Jael, I encourage you to stay submitted (or strive to become submitted) to the teachings of God on these issues. I’ll try as well.

Thanks Roofus

I am submitted to the teachings of God. That is very important to me. I don’t do wild experiments or just go with what feels good. I strive to understand what God would have me do. Hence why I broached the question. I take Gods commands seriously, and I strive to know what His expectations for me actually a, not necessarily what is popularly taught. And I do nothing till I’m as sure as I can be that I’m in His will.

Thanks for the concern brother

[roofus]

Thanks Roofus

I am submitted to the teachings of God. That is very important to me. I don’t do wild experiments or just go with what feels good. I strive to understand what God would have me do. Hence why I broached the question. I take Gods commands seriously, and I strive to know what His expectations for me actually a, not necessarily what is popularly taught. And I do nothing till I’m as sure as I can be that I’m in His will.

Thanks for the concern brother
No problem. But are we ever “totally” submitted? I think that it is an ongoing process of ups and downs, don’t you?

[JaelSister]

Thanks Roofus

I am submitted to the teachings of God. That is very important to me. I don’t do wild experiments or just go with what feels good. I strive to understand what God would have me do. Hence why I broached the question. I take Gods commands seriously, and I strive to know what His expectations for me actually a, not necessarily what is popularly taught. And I do nothing till I’m as sure as I can be that I’m in His will.

Thanks for the concern brother

No problem. But are we ever “totally” submitted? I think that it is an ongoing process of ups and downs, don’t you?

Indeed it is bro. It’s a process of the heart more than anything else. On the one side, we don’t want to do anything we want and call that grace. On the opposite side, we don’t want to think we do everything by the book and therefore have pleased God, but have hearts like Pharisees.

I believe strongly in careful study of scripture and listening to the Holy Spirit witness. The scripture does say to let peace be your umpire. The Holy Spirit of peace and truth should guide us. I can but try my best. Now I see through the glass dimly, but one day it will all be clear

[Bret_Belko]

Dear JaelSister,

Thank you for the loving and kind words in responding to my 3 posts. Being sick, YOU made my day! And I very much agree with the above post you wrote to Roofus!! You seem to have a good and kind head on your shoulders and you made me smile and cry… I think you understand that and why. So many blessings to you and I hope that everything folks have shared here you will just consider and then do what YOUR heart tells you. That would be after much prayer and meditation of course.

Take good care and thank you for sharing with us a bit of yourself, what a blessing.

Bret

[JaelSister]

Dear brothers and sisters

I thought you might like an update. The man I spoke of is a believer in God and an Anglican. He is one who believes in personal, private faith, not the ram it down your throat sort. It’s so strange. He knows nothing of theology or doctrine. Yet from his heart comes such wisdom. When my family said he ‘needed God’, he said to me that he believes God loves all people with real love and is leading all people to Him as they’re all His children.

I sensed God leading me towards this man and we’ve been together now for a year. And we’re so happy. I’ve never felt so loved. Nor have I ever loved a person more than I love him. And with him, I’m free to be 100% myself. I can talk through my real thoughts and feelings on faith with him, and I always get a thoughtful, nonjudgmental response. Infact both our spiritual lives are deeper now we are together. He is truly a blessing and The Lord knew what He was doing putting us two together.

[Username1]

Clearly the man is a saint, JLS. He has to be to be able to handle the force of nature that is JaelSister. Seriously, he’s a lovely guy, and you deserve each other and the happiness you bring each other.

And equally seriously, it’s highly instructive to me that your paramour engages with God on an ‘instinctual’ level, and the fruit of this is a sort of organic Universalism. This to me is strong evidence that Universalism is true. God places it on our hearts, because He is good and He loves us all. We plaster all manner of theological and doctrinal doubt all over our natural beliefs, because we are selfish and proud.

A vast amount of utterly pointless hot air is generated by theologians, and tremendous amounts of energy wasted debating meaningless doctrinal trivia - the angels on the head of a pin stuff. Some of it on this very forum, begorrah! We need more true Christ-followers like your man. And you me dear .

Love and blessings to you both

Johnny

[JasonPratt]

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/character0272.gif

Happy sort-of anniversary, and many more (God willing) to come!

[SLJ]

I’m glad to hear this, JaelSis! He sounds like one who worships in spirit and in truth.

Sonia