Sorry, that’s not what the bible says:
the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal
That’s fine if you want to believe otherwise, but I’ll go with what the scriptures say and be grateful that he gives it to me as a gift.
Dirtboy,
*Sorry, that’s not what the bible says:
the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal
That’s fine if you want to believe otherwise, but I’ll go with what the scriptures say and be grateful that he gives it to me as a gift.*
Don’t you just LOVE when Platonic and Cartesian philosophy gets confused with actual Biblical exegesis? It’s my favorite! 
Look up Men at Work and you’ll get my answer.
Checkmate! 
I tend to think what Revival means is that God alone posesses it and gives it to whomever he pleases (namely those who believe). After all if God ALONE is immortal then can we be clothed with immortality?
No Revival , you have it a bit confused. Adam lost immortality when he sinned. Once we accept Christ as savior we will become immortal when we die and then resurrected or at the rapture. I know lot here dont believe in a literal rapture but i do.
So Michael, it is something we get when we are saved.
Philippians 3:21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 Corinthians 15:44-55: 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”e; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall wef bear the likeness of the man from heaven.50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”55“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
This ‘immortality’ portion really has different opinions. Whether ECT or UR, the question of ‘immortality’ has various opinions.
I do not believe Adam ever obtained or had immortality, Scripture says he didn’t have opportunity to eat from the Tree of Life, something that was only made known to him after he ate of the tree of knowledge. Before he had a chance, God kicked him out. Adam was mortal, never possessing immortality but seeing it from a far.
Adam already had the life of God in his spirit before the fall.( Gen 2:7) There was no need for him to eat from the tree of life. Adam lived to be 930 years old after the fall. How was that possible if he were not created immortal? I see it as Adam’s life was cut short due to him receiving spiritual death otherwise he would of never died.
It was possible because the Earth/atmosphere was in better condition then. And probably because God still had mercy on him. Man’s lifespan lessened over the years and after the flood, the bible also talks about this. I don’t have the scriptures off hand that speak of this.
I believe that. That’s why God said if you eat of the fruit, you will die. Not that very instant, but eventually, well, in Adam’s case, 930 years later. But we are also assuming that God also means physically dying, not just spiritual death. But if that’s the case, does this mean Adam had the resurrected body we will one day receive? scripture doesn’t really say…
the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 **who alone is immortal **
Trying to extract historical or scientific information from the myths and symbolism of Genesis is a serious mistake, in my view. Adam, Eve and their talking snake no more existed in the historical past than the many-headed dragon of Revelation will exist in the historical future. Just as the end of the world is expressed in mythic terms, so too its beginning.
2 Timothy 1:9-11
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
The only one who had immortality, is the second Adam. The first Adam was never immortal. Scripture is very clear on this, death was in the garden before any transgression appeared. The Second Adam, who alone has immortality, first had to die.
**Romans 6:9-10 **
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
The Second Adam was not immortal because He could not die, He was immortal because He was raised from the dead. Immortality did not come first, it came last. The first Adam therefore never had immortality ever.
Craig
How does what your saying line up with Romans 5:14 which states that Adam was the ‘figure’ of Jesus to come? This word figure means prototype.
It absolutely makes sense, your just not reading scripture as a whole.
This is the pattern
1 Corinthians 15:22
Because of Adam, all people die. So because of Christ, all will be made alive.
This is the pattern
1 Corinthians 15:45
It is written, “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a spirit that gives life.
This is the pattern after verse 14.
Romans 5:15-17
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
You’re not reading everything.
Lets keep reading.
Romans 5:18-19
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there** resulted justification of life to all men.**[size=150] For as through the one man’s disobedience all were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the all will be made righteous. [/size]
This is the pattern.
Your ECT theology destroyed by your defense of a ‘pattern’.
Craig
How is it possible for a perfect God to give a flawed death life from himself to Adam? Only life can come from God not death. ( Gen 2:7) If Adam and creation were created to meet God’s standards how could that not mean everything God created (including Adam) did not exist in a state of perfection?
So… back to the original question, “Why does Yahweh need an eternal hell?” The consensus seems to be that He doesn’t need it; He doesn’t need anything.
So if people will suffer in hell forever, and God doesn’t need this, then why would He send the majority of people into everlasting punishment? The only answer that makes sense to me, is that He does so because hate and revenge are part of His character (though He asks us NOT to take vengeance on our enemies)! You’ve all heard people say, “Oh yes, God is a God of love, BUT, He also is a God of justice”, by which they mean that God wants people to undergo endless suffering for their sins, even though it serves no purpose.
As Jonathan Edward preached:
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.
So according to Edwards, God doesn’t love us; He abhors us! How else could He better express this abhorrence and hate toward us than by sending us to everlasting, conscious torment?
All the chatter about humans being immortal because we were created in the image of God is silly. We don’t even know for sure what being created in the image of God entails. Clearly it doesn’t mean that we possess all the attributes of God, and why should we assume that immortality is one of God’s attributes that we DO possess? Scripture certainly doesn’t say so.
I don’t know how you can get much plainer than “the only wise God, who alone has immortality.” The business about the human soul being immortal (or spirit if you prefer) is a Platonic concept, not a biblical one. We’ve heard it for so long that we “know” it must be in there somewhere. Notice that Revival gives arguments from conjecture rather than actual scriptural confirmation. That’s not his fault. There simply isn’t ANY direct scriptural confirmation that the soul/spirit of man is immortal of itself. Tradition says that; Plato says that; the preacher maybe says that, but the Bible does NOT say that anywhere at all. I’ve looked and looked and looked. If you find it, please do let me know; just don’t bother me with scriptures that you allege to mean that, but which don’t say it. (Like the thing about us being made in God’s image, or Adam living 900 years.)
And if the soul/spirit of man is not immortal by its nature, there’s no need for an everlasting hell. I was always told that the evil people who refused redemption had to go somewhere, and that was why God needed an eternal hell. But that doesn’t make any sense if all things (which certainly includes all created beings) will be summed up in Christ. How could a hell full of sin and wickedness and hatred be contained by Christ? How could that ever be? And how could hell be outside Christ (be it ever so tiny), if He fills all in all?
Somehow it escaped me that if death was destroyed, was no more, and the grave was no more, then people (all of whom are alive to God), would no longer be held by the chains of death or the grave. That pretty much does away with annihilation, too. And if they’re set free into life, they must be reconciled with Christ, as evil is no more. The tears from all eyes will be wiped away. One might argue that the Revelation passage alludes only to the redeemed, but the Isaiah passage it’s quoting from alludes clearly to all people. No more tears at all, not even for the Father, weeping for His children. Sweet joy!
Remind me . . . why did I think this was heresy?
Nice story, Cindy. Knowing how God made man is not a mystery at all. We are spirit beings that have a soul that are shelled with a corrupted body.
Still, you haven’t addressed my arguments. That being as it is, I’ll address what you did say. Your view of what “being made in the image of God” means is not the only view, nor is it implied in the Genesis account, let alone articulated. Yes, it’s the view traditionally taught, but of course that doesn’t make it the truth.
How about this one? (I’m not being dogmatic, by the way, but it’s an equally viable alternative view to the traditional one.)
God made mankind one as He is One. Not individual men one, but mankind as one. God is One; Adam is one. God is community; man is community. This, too, is the image of God (assuming that you believe in the Trinity, as I do). The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three distinct persons, but they are not individuals; they are One. Mankind was also created to be one. Satan tempted Eve saying, “You will be like God,” but she was ALREADY like God! Satan lied. That’s what he does.
God later said, “Man has become as one of us,” (note, He didn’t say, "Mankind has become as we are, but Mankind has become as one of us. Only one, not the whole – not the community of the Godhead. That was the reason He gave for preventing us from the Tree of Life. Because we had become as **one **of the Godhead – as separate – as individual. We had lost our unity with one another.
So we lost the image of God when we became disassociated from one another. It makes more sense to me than the egg thing – a LOT more sense, and let’s face it – the egg is not in scripture, and community, oneness with our brothers and sisters in Christ, IS in scripture. Not only that, but what is the utopian dream of the human race as a whole? That we could live together in peace and love with one another? Certainly there are those who just want to be left alone, but ultimately we need one another. That’s the way God made us. But we have become lonely individuals.
Now to me, that is a much more sensible view of what the image of God in mankind consists of, especially as Jesus prays that His ekklesia will be made “one, as We are One.” We are supposed to show the world what God looks like by loving one another and being one as He is One.
However, this isn’t a thread on what the image of God consists of. My only point here (long-winded as I am) is to display that there is more than one view as to what this means. I’m sure there are others as well, in addition to this one.
Being made in the image of God does not necessarily mean that man was originally immortal, or that the soul/spirit of man is inherently immortal. If man IS indeed immortal, we must look elsewhere for proof. The Genesis story is not specific enough to allow us to conclude natural immortality of man.