I am having trouble understanding why Yahweh needs an eternal hell according to Revival’s theology. Just between Calvinists and Arminians the reasons can differ dramatically. So I think it’s important for us to understand Revival’s position to better engage with his views. I began to discuss this on another thread, but perhaps it’s better suited here, so as not to detract from the questions he raised there.
Revival, my question is: what do you believe Hell to be? You’ve argued for its existence and its eternality being evidenced in the scriptures. But it would be helpful for us to know why you think it exists and why it needs to be eternal – for your view to be framed in a broader explanation of man and the nature of God. (I am still writing an answer to your question on what I think hell is, on the threadKings of the Earth). Thanks brother, I appreciate your efforts here.
I’m curious to hear that as well, especially in light of the fact that God spells out in the scriptures over and over again that he does not punish people eternally or remain angry/reject forever. In light of that, translating “aionios” from the Greek word “age” as “eternal” is clearly a mistranslation as it contradicts what God says about himself.
I am specifically asking Revival why Yahweh needs an eternal hell according to his theology. As I suspect Revival is an Arminian, he would probably frame most things differently to you. Though I encourage your participation, this thread isn’t really concerned with what you think as a Calvinist or semantics – even according to Calvinism, Yahweh “needs” an eternal hell to display and administer His eternal wrath upon the reprobate.
Lamentations 3:31
31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
Psalm 103:9
9He will not always accuse us of wrong
or be angry with us forever.
Jeremiah 3:5
5He won’t hold a grudge forever.
He won’t always be angry.’
Isaiah 57:16 ff
16I will not accuse you forever.
I will not be angry with you forever.
Otherwise, the spirits, the lives of those I’ve made,
would grow faint in my presence.
17I was angry because of their sinful greed,
so I punished them, hid from them, and remained angry.
But they continued to be sinful.
18I’ve seen their sinful ways, but I’ll heal them.
I’ll guide them and give them rest.
I’ll comfort them and their mourners.
19I’ll create praise on their lips:
“Perfect peace to those both far and near.”
“I’ll heal them,” says the LORD.
Psalms 30:5
5His anger lasts only a moment.
His favor lasts a lifetime.
Weeping may last for the night,
but there is a song of joy in the morning.
Micah 7:18,19
18 Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
19 You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.
There are many scriptures that describe God as being one who is not eternal in his anger. It’s one thing to take a scripture and conclude from it that God might be a certain way, but it’s another thing entirely when God’s word says explicitly “God is this way” or “God is NOT this way”. The Bible teaches repeatedly that God is not one who remains angry forever, but delights in showing mercy. If hell is eternal, and a great majority of people go there, which is the traditional interpretation of scripture, then God truly is one whose love lasts only but a moment, but his anger is forever. You can theorize all you want about this, but the scriptural teaching is plain. Scripture says that punishment is “aionios”, which is traditionally interpreted as “eternal” or “forever”. In light of the broader scriptural context AND the fact that “aionios” can be interpreted as lasting for a period of time that is not eternal, it should be clear that God’s punishment would not last forever.
Here is a scripture where all Greek scholars don’t interpret it as being forever:
It’s interesting that aionios is “long ages past”, a period of time that ends at the revelation of Christ. Definitely a long period of time, but one that ends..
Dirtboy, those verses of scripture are beautiful. Think I’ll save 'em.
Thing is, i think most Arminist would interpret those verses as being ONLY for the saved…or…if they are for everyone, then it would be long as someone is alive.
I apologize. I thought he was a calvinist, which is why I revealed myself as such but now that I know he is an arminian or that you suspect he is, then I would reveal myself as a person who believes in an eternal hell but would still like to know why God needs hell.
The beautiful thing is that most of those verses are God talking to Israel. They weren’t “saved”, but they were God’s chosen people (some were faithful and some were not). We learn in the N.T. that the love God has for Israel, he has for us! The Arminian can say that it is only while people are alive, but that wouldn’t make any sense because the verses tell us what God is like in his character. God’s character does not change simply because our physical body dies, he remains the same, always. Since he has shown that his character is one that does not punish forever, then he is not one who punishes forever! The translators were simply wrong when they mistranslated “aionios” into English. They were letting their theological bias get in the way of God’s teaching about himself. The scriptures teach that God is holy. We know that God can never be UN-holy because that is out of character for him. Likewise they teach that he does not hold his anger against us forever because it is out of character for him. That is why story after story in the Old Testament show God as “one who relents” even when he is REALLY angry:
If God is “one who relents concerning calamity” and one “who delights in mercy” and “one who doesn’t remain angry forever” and “one who does not cast off forever”, then how can he cast off sinners into hell forever? That is what I ask my Arminian friends. **
Revival isn’t here to tell us what he believes, nor have his beliefs questioned. He is here to tell us we are wrong, and question our beliefs. This is why he hasn’t responded to this thread.
I must also apologize. Having read my original post again, it actually seems quite aggressive. Sincerest apologies for that – it was certainly not my intention. Godspeed to you.
Cindy
This is the third time correcting you on not being a Calvinist. My intro says no such thing. I don’t know if you are not reading my responses but I can assure you that I’m no Calvinist.
Hell is a place of torment where unbelievers go when they die in a spiritual death condition. Jesus called it Hades in Luke 16:19-31. Hell is a temporary holding place for unbelievers until final judgment in Rev 20:11-15 when they will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Hell exists for the opposite reason Heaven exits. God is eternal. He created man eternal. God is a Spirit. We are spirits that have a soul that live in a mortal body. God said choose life or death. The decisions you make in this life determine where you spend eternity.
I do not like to use mans labels on ones theology. I believe God created man with the ability to choose. Man did not lose this ability to choose after the fall in Gen 3. God gives man a choice to choose life or death. I believe in being water baptized by immersion. I believe in the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as being vital to a Christians walk. God bless.
So am I right in understanding that you believe Yahweh wants everyone to repent, but after death there is no hope or further opportunity to do so? Is this because you believe they will never repent of their own will, or because Yahweh will reject all post-mortem repentance? I actually have considerable sympathy for the former view, but would like to know what you think on this.
Wow – so you’re a pelagian of some sort?! You heretic, you! Very interesting. Thanks.
Very interesting. Thanks.