Dear Revival, why does Yahweh need an eternal Hell?

[dirtboy]

Chris,
You are claiming that aionios means eternal in the verse that say He will not remain angry forever, right? Isn’t aionios used there?
roof

Hey roof, aionios is a Greek word and this is Hebrew. Whatever the meaning of the Hebrew word translated “forever” here means, the message is clear that God doesn’t stay angry, but delights in showing mercy. I haven’t looked into the word, but the understanding that I have is that the Hebrews didn’t really have a concept of what we call eternity.

It’s interesting to me how much these verses are overlooked in that they describe God’s character as one who doesn’t remain angry and who delights in showing mercy and we say that he is like that when we are alive, but our death seems to change God’s character because now, all of the sudden, he does remain wrathful, angry, without mercy forever. It just doesn’t make any sense. I really don’t know why translators translated aionios “eternal” in light of what the rest of scripture says about God. To me it is a clear contradiction–especially in light of the fact that the Greek allows them to translate it differently.

So then that verse, if it doesn’t mean forever, does it mean that God doesn’t stay angry for “long ages”?

Don’t you see what I am saying: you are taking a verse that says that God will not be angry forever (presumably aionios, no?) and then not letting it mean forever in the verses that speak of punishment?

I hear what you are saying, roof. The word “aionios” is not being used here in the old testament. I actually haven’t looked the word up. In my discussion with that one scholar who wrote the book on terms of eternity, he said that the Hebrew world view didn’t even grasp what we would in modern terms call “eternity”. Their word “olam” means something that lasts really long. For example, I forget the address, but the O.T. talks about the “olam” mountains. We know mountains are not eternal, but they do last for a VERY long time. This is the same idea with aionios. The word is NOT specifying how long. It is saying that the object of it’s description is “lasting” (for a long time, or for an age). I gave an example on an old post about how “aionios” could be used in modern English and not specify amount of time:

That gum is delicious and lasting
That perfume smells terrible and is lasting
I smoke that brand of cigarettes. They are fragrant and lasting
I hope that rapist gets a lasting prison sentence

In the first phrase, the gum could last for a half hour and it would be a legitimate statment.
In the second phrase the perfume might need to last all day to have the same meaning.
In the third sentence, the cigarettes may need to burn 20 minutes or more to be “lasting”
In the last sentence, the prison sentence may need to be 25 years or more to be considered lasting.

In each case, the word “lasting” is modified by the noun that it is talking about. It is not saying how long something lasts. It is not inherent in the meaning of the word to denote a specific length of time. When we say God’s love is lasting, we know it is forever. When we say God himself is lasting, we know the same thing because the noun “God” and what we know about him modifies the meaning of the word describing him.

That is how the scripture can use the same word to describe heaven and punishment and come up with different durations. We already know from the scripture in numerous places that God doesn’t punish in a never ending way. His love endures, but his punishments don’t. Israel was said in Jeremiah to be punished forever. That was later described as seventy years. God said his anger would NEVER go out. But it did, because he doesn’t remain angry. He does this several times in Jeremiah like I showed you a while back. I think it is more realistic to say that “olam” didn’t mean eternal since the context demands this (by the way, the Septuagint translates “olam” as “aionios” in the verse that describes the “eternal mountains”, which are obviously NOT eternal since the earth had a beginning and will have an end) But I’m rambling and off topic

[auggybendoggy]

Dirt, would you mind posting those scriptures as you explaing. I’d appreciate it.

[dirtboy]

Dirt, would you mind posting those scriptures as you explaing. I’d appreciate it.

Hey Auggy, Are you talking about the ones in Jeremiah?

[auggybendoggy]

Yea, I was finding your post interesting but it’s hard sometimes when we don’t paranthesis a passage. It’s easier for us to locate it and follow along.

[dirtboy]

Yea, I was finding your post interesting but it’s hard sometimes when we don’t paranthesis a passage. It’s easier for us to locate it and follow along.

Here was a thing I wrote a while back after reading the book of Jeremiah. It includes my thoughts on God’s punishment and verses from Jeremiah. I haven’t edited, so it may have some mistakes, but here it is:

If I were going to translate the “eternal” passages in the scriptures concerning the duration of hell, what would I do? What would be my methodology?

First, when translating scripture, I understand that scripture needs to agree with other scripture. If I come across a word that could be translated one of two ways and one way makes it contradict scripture while the other one fits harmoniously, it would be my duty to translate the passage according to the rules of grammar and in accordance with the harmony of scripture. For example, grammar allows John 1:1 to be translated “a god”, but context does not. Both must be taken into account when translating the Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

When we come to the word “aionios” there can be no doubt that it can be translated in both an “eternal” and “non-eternal” (see Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2)sense. Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words affirms this (as well as many other legitimate conservative sources), but emphasizes that the vast majority of times in scripture it means “eternal”. Aionios can be a complicated word, but for sake of simplicity, let’s say we would use “eternal” for the one side, and “lasting” [for an age] (or “pertaining to an age” but we’ll use “lasting” for simplicity). There is another reason we are given to translate it as “eternal”. We are told that since, in Matthew, when Jesus is talking about the sheep’s and the goats, he ascribes aionios life to the sheep’s and aionios punishment to the goats. It is argued that these are parallel and therefore they must use the same definition. Since we know that heaven is eternal, then the meanings must be the same in both phrases. Is this the case? Would translating it “eternal” contradict scripture? It is my firm conviction that translating “aionios” as eternal in this and other passages of scripture directly contradicts what God has revealed about himself in the testimony of the rest of scripture.

It is clear from scripture that the heart of God desires to save mankind. Whether or not you agree with universal reconciliation, the scriptures declare God’s desires clearly: His love is so intense and powerful that he sent his only son to die. The scripture goes further to say that it is in his heart’s desire that ALL men be saved. So God deeply loves and desires to save all of his creatures. God reveals himself in the Old Testament (and new) to be a person who does NOT punish eternally. This is repeatedly revealed in numerous ways. As you read through the Old Testament, a pattern, or theme develop about God and punishment of sin. It angers and disgusts him and he punishes it. But he always stops, and he has reconciliation as his purpose. His anger has an end. When God was punishing David for the census, he stopped at 70,000 dead and relented. It specifies that. When Jonah was faced with preaching to the Ninevites, he said to God,
“That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love,** a God who relents from sending calamity” **

Is this true? Is he a God who relents? The scriptures affirm it here and in several other places that God’s punishment never lasts forever. This is not just my opinion for the scripture bears it out specifically here in Jonah and in other places such as:

Joel 2:13 - Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, **and he relents from sending calamity. **
I then sought out situations that would refute this but only found more backing texts. Going through the book of Jeremiah, God is very vocal about his anger at Israel’s sin. His punishment is severe. I found several interesting verses about His punishment of them:

Jeremiah 7:20 20“This is what the Almighty LORD says: My anger and fury will be poured out on this place, on humans and animals, and on trees and crops. **My anger and fury will burn and not be put out.
**
Jeremiah 13
14Then I will smash them like bottles against each other. I will smash parents and children together, declares the LORD. **I will have no pity, mercy, or compassion when I destroy them.’ ” **

Jeremiah 15
5No one will take pity on you, Jerusalem. No one will mourn for you. No one will bother to ask how you are doing. 6You have left me,” declares the LORD. “You have turned your back on me. So I will use my power against you and destroy you. **I’m tired of showing compassion to you.
**
Jeremiah 17
4You will lose the inheritance that I gave you. I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you haven’t heard of. I will do this because **you have stirred up the fire of my anger.
It will burn forever. **

There were several statements that gave the impression that God’s punishment would not end. It seemed to contradict what I had originally thought about God’s punishment. **God said it would be forever. ** Then came the clincher:

Jeremiah 18
7“At one time I may threaten to tear up, break down, and destroy a nation or a kingdom. 8But suppose the nation that I threatened turns away from doing wrong. **Then I will change my plans about the disaster I planned to do to it. **
And the very famous passage:

Jeremiah 29 -
10This is what the LORD says: When Babylon’s 70 years are over, I will come to you. I will keep my promise to you and bring you back to this place. 11I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope. 12Then you will call to me. You will come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13When you look for me, you will find me. When you wholeheartedly seek me, 14I will let you find me, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I’ve scattered you, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from the place where you are being held captive.

Even when God made straightforward, unequivocal, seemingly irreversible statements about punishment, he would in fact change his mind because of his compassion because that’s the way he is. God does NOT punish or remain angry forever! All along, God intended to show mercy because the wrath that he poured out was with the intent to bring Israel back to him.

Look:
Jeremiah 3:4,5 “Have you not just now called to Me, My Father, You are the friend of my youth? Will He be angry forever? Will He be indignant to the end?’ Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the LORD; I will not look upon you in anger. **For I am gracious,’ declares the LORD; ‘I will not be angry forever.” **

Psalms 30:55** For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime”;**

Psalms 103:9 He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.”

When he said that his anger “would burn forever” in Jeremiah, **it was actually seventy years that it lasted for, not eternity. Eternity, it seems in this case, is seventy years. **More realistically though, the word was mistranslated because God was not going to punish forever as he showed.

When we get to the New Testament and Jesus supposedly said that God’s punishment was going to be “forever”, this would be the first time God ever said that punishment would be “forever” and meant it (if ECT is true), and it would contradict scripture about “not being angry forever”; “being a God who relents”, etc. He did so a few times in Jeremiah, but did not mean it (it makes you wonder if they translated “olam” correctly when he said his fire would burn forever when he meant for only seventy years?). He plainly does NOT punish forever and if that is what Jesus was saying, it would be a HUGE non sequitur because it does not follow how God punishes in the rest of scripture.

Notice that God does not mention eternal hell in Genesis at the beginning or after sin, or at the giving of the law and the various punishments and consequences of disobedience. God details punishment quite a bit in the O.T. but he never tells his people that his punishment for sin is eternal punishment. Instead he continuously presents himself as someone who is patient, forgiving, and, after punishing sin, he wants to reconcile. He is one who relents concerning punishment. He hates sin, but he doesn’t punish eternally. He is portrayed as someone whose loving-kindness lasts forever and whose anger is for only a short time, not the other way around. Love, it is said, never fails. He asks us to continue to forgive again and again, and he asks us to love our enemies, NOT just our enemies who become Christians. Then we are to believe that God stops forgiving and punishes forever, for the first time in scripture opposed to dozens and dozens of scriptures to the contrary. In other words, there is NO larger context in which we can determine that God punishes endlessly and eternally. It simply is not there no matter where you look.

Therefore, when I come to “aionios”, I see how God deals with his wrath throughout scripture, I understand that God is not one who is angry forever and he is one who relents concerning wrath and punishment. I would be foolish and wrong to say, “It must mean eternal” because that is not how God has revealed himself in the scriptures. To say that punishment is eternal contradicts scripture as a whole and I challenge anyone to find a scripture outside of “aionios” that indicates that God’s punishment of sin is eternal. I’ve not yet found any such scripture or scriptural principle though I’ve found the opposite again and again!

[JeffA]

Thanks Dirtboy - great post. Never seen before a way to keep the ECT language while remaining a universalist - interesting.

[roofus]

Yea, I was finding your post interesting but it’s hard sometimes when we don’t paranthesis a passage. It’s easier for us to locate it and follow along.

Here was a thing I wrote a while back after reading the book of Jeremiah. It includes my thoughts on God’s punishment and verses from Jeremiah. I haven’t edited, so it may have some mistakes, but here it is:

If I were going to translate the “eternal” passages in the scriptures concerning the duration of hell, what would I do? What would be my methodology?

First, when translating scripture, I understand that scripture needs to agree with other scripture. If I come across a word that could be translated one of two ways and one way makes it contradict scripture while the other one fits harmoniously, it would be my duty to translate the passage according to the rules of grammar and in accordance with the harmony of scripture. For example, grammar allows John 1:1 to be translated “a god”, but context does not. Both must be taken into account when translating the Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

When we come to the word “aionios” there can be no doubt that it can be translated in both an “eternal” and “non-eternal” (see Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2)sense. Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words affirms this (as well as many other legitimate conservative sources), but emphasizes that the vast majority of times in scripture it means “eternal”. Aionios can be a complicated word, but for sake of simplicity, let’s say we would use “eternal” for the one side, and “lasting” [for an age] (or “pertaining to an age” but we’ll use “lasting” for simplicity). There is another reason we are given to translate it as “eternal”. We are told that since, in Matthew, when Jesus is talking about the sheep’s and the goats, he ascribes aionios life to the sheep’s and aionios punishment to the goats. It is argued that these are parallel and therefore they must use the same definition. Since we know that heaven is eternal, then the meanings must be the same in both phrases. Is this the case? Would translating it “eternal” contradict scripture? It is my firm conviction that translating “aionios” as eternal in this and other passages of scripture directly contradicts what God has revealed about himself in the testimony of the rest of scripture.

It is clear from scripture that the heart of God desires to save mankind. Whether or not you agree with universal reconciliation, the scriptures declare God’s desires clearly: His love is so intense and powerful that he sent his only son to die. The scripture goes further to say that it is in his heart’s desire that ALL men be saved. So God deeply loves and desires to save all of his creatures. God reveals himself in the Old Testament (and new) to be a person who does NOT punish eternally. This is repeatedly revealed in numerous ways. As you read through the Old Testament, a pattern, or theme develop about God and punishment of sin. It angers and disgusts him and he punishes it. But he always stops, and he has reconciliation as his purpose. His anger has an end. When God was punishing David for the census, he stopped at 70,000 dead and relented. It specifies that. When Jonah was faced with preaching to the Ninevites, he said to God,
“That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love,** a God who relents from sending calamity” **

Is this true? Is he a God who relents? The scriptures affirm it here and in several other places that God’s punishment never lasts forever. This is not just my opinion for the scripture bears it out specifically here in Jonah and in other places such as:

Joel 2:13 - Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, **and he relents from sending calamity. **
I then sought out situations that would refute this but only found more backing texts. Going through the book of Jeremiah, God is very vocal about his anger at Israel’s sin. His punishment is severe. I found several interesting verses about His punishment of them:

Jeremiah 7:20 20“This is what the Almighty LORD says: My anger and fury will be poured out on this place, on humans and animals, and on trees and crops. My anger and fury will burn and not be put out.

Jeremiah 13
14Then I will smash them like bottles against each other. I will smash parents and children together, declares the LORD. **I will have no pity, mercy, or compassion when I destroy them.’ ” **

Jeremiah 15
5No one will take pity on you, Jerusalem. No one will mourn for you. No one will bother to ask how you are doing. 6You have left me,” declares the LORD. “You have turned your back on me. So I will use my power against you and destroy you. **I’m tired of showing compassion to you.
**
Jeremiah 17
4You will lose the inheritance that I gave you. I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you haven’t heard of. I will do this because you have stirred up the fire of my anger.
It will burn forever.

There were several statements that gave the impression that God’s punishment would not end. It seemed to contradict what I had originally thought about God’s punishment. **God said it would be forever. ** Then came the clincher:

Jeremiah 18
7“At one time I may threaten to tear up, break down, and destroy a nation or a kingdom. 8But suppose the nation that I threatened turns away from doing wrong. **Then I will change my plans about the disaster I planned to do to it. **
And the very famous passage:

Jeremiah 29 -
10This is what the LORD says: When Babylon’s 70 years are over, I will come to you. I will keep my promise to you and bring you back to this place. 11I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope. 12Then you will call to me. You will come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13When you look for me, you will find me. When you wholeheartedly seek me, 14I will let you find me, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I’ve scattered you, declares the LORD. I will bring you back from the place where you are being held captive.

Even when God made straightforward, unequivocal, seemingly irreversible statements about punishment, he would in fact change his mind because of his compassion because that’s the way he is. God does NOT punish or remain angry forever! All along, God intended to show mercy because the wrath that he poured out was with the intent to bring Israel back to him.

Look:
Jeremiah 3:4,5 “Have you not just now called to Me, My Father, You are the friend of my youth? Will He be angry forever? Will He be indignant to the end?’ Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the LORD; I will not look upon you in anger. **For I am gracious,’ declares the LORD; ‘I will not be angry forever.” **

Psalms 30:55** For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime”;**

Psalms 103:9 He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.”

When he said that his anger “would burn forever” in Jeremiah, **it was actually seventy years that it lasted for, not eternity. Eternity, it seems in this case, is seventy years. **More realistically though, the word was mistranslated because God was not going to punish forever as he showed.

When we get to the New Testament and Jesus supposedly said that God’s punishment was going to be “forever”, this would be the first time God ever said that punishment would be “forever” and meant it (if ECT is true), and it would contradict scripture about “not being angry forever”; “being a God who relents”, etc. He did so a few times in Jeremiah, but did not mean it (it makes you wonder if they translated “olam” correctly when he said his fire would burn forever when he meant for only seventy years?). He plainly does NOT punish forever and if that is what Jesus was saying, it would be a HUGE non sequitur because it does not follow how God punishes in the rest of scripture.

Notice that God does not mention eternal hell in Genesis at the beginning or after sin, or at the giving of the law and the various punishments and consequences of disobedience. God details punishment quite a bit in the O.T. but he never tells his people that his punishment for sin is eternal punishment. Instead he continuously presents himself as someone who is patient, forgiving, and, after punishing sin, he wants to reconcile. He is one who relents concerning punishment. He hates sin, but he doesn’t punish eternally. He is portrayed as someone whose loving-kindness lasts forever and whose anger is for only a short time, not the other way around. Love, it is said, never fails. He asks us to continue to forgive again and again, and he asks us to love our enemies, NOT just our enemies who become Christians. Then we are to believe that God stops forgiving and punishes forever, for the first time in scripture opposed to dozens and dozens of scriptures to the contrary. In other words, there is NO larger context in which we can determine that God punishes endlessly and eternally. It simply is not there no matter where you look.

Therefore, when I come to “aionios”, I see how God deals with his wrath throughout scripture, I understand that God is not one who is angry forever and he is one who relents concerning wrath and punishment. I would be foolish and wrong to say, “It must mean eternal” because that is not how God has revealed himself in the scriptures. To say that punishment is eternal contradicts scripture as a whole and I challenge anyone to find a scripture outside of “aionios” that indicates that God’s punishment of sin is eternal. I’ve not yet found any such scripture or scriptural principle though I’ve found the opposite again and again!

Thanks, Chris
You are a fine writer! Just a question about the aion words in the OT (Septuagint). An ECT proponent (Turretin Fan) seemed to, instead of interpreting aionios as “lasting” as you do, interpret it as a figurative usage of “eternal” similar to the way we sometimes say “I waited in line forever”. Your thoughts (putting aside your overal argument for a moment)?
roof