Exactly my point. If man “can’t” believe the gospel on his own then he “can’t” save himself by “believing”, can he?
So why do you try to blame those who “can’t” believe for being lost and give credit for those who “do” believe for being saved?
Not exactly, that “word” doesn’t contain His faith, that “word” needs to be MIXED WITH FAITH (of which Christ is both the author and the finisher) in them that hear it; but that “word” can fall on all different sorts of “ground” and might never take root.
What man can resist? The natural man or the spiritual man? Surely not the spiritual man and the natural man isn’t even capable of believing. You said this yourself, did you not?
According to scripture, the Good Shepherd will leave the 99 who are not lost to go after the 1 who is - until He finds it. Does it say that he then only offers to take it back to the fold but leaves it up to the sheep?
you said: What man can resist? The natural man or the spiritual man? Surely not the spiritual man and the natural man isn’t even capable of believing. You said this yourself, did you not?
Aaron37: Natural man can resist the Holy Spirit and the truth of the gospel being preached. The Jews resisted the Holy Spirit when Steven was preaching the truth from the word of God. ( Acts 7:51). King Agrippa resisted the Holy Spirit and the truth Paul was preaching. ( Acts 26: 26-29) They resisted the gift of faith that it takes to be saved…and remained lost. They could of believed and recieved it, but they chose to doubt and do without.
I disagree. To be carnally minded is death. The carnal mind is not even subject to the laws of God. How can you “resist” something that you are not even subject to to begin with?
Wouldn’t that be like saying that a man “not subject to” gravity (if it were possible) is simply “resisting” it when the truth is that it simply has no power over him to begin with? And he can, in truth, neither “resist it” NOR “subject himself” to it?
you said: I disagree. To be carnally minded is death. The carnal mind is not even subject to the laws of God. How can you “resist” something that you are not even subject to to begin with?
Wouldn’t that be like saying that a man “not subject to” gravity (if it were possible) is simply “resisting” it when the truth is that it simply has no power over him to begin with? And he can, in truth, neither “resist it” NOR “subject himself” to it?atHisfeet
Aaron37: “The death” you refer to is “spirtual death” which we all inherited from Adam.This is why we need to be made spiritually alive or born again by faith in Jesus’ finished work on the cross. The laws of God? If you are referring to the 10 commandments…the Gentiles were never under the law and were never subject to it.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We all need to be made spiritually alive that comes by hearing the word of God (the gospel) and believing and recieving what Jesus did for you on the cross or you will doubt and do without. The gospel is pretty simple…man has tainted it and made the gospel confusing.
I realize that I am referring to spiritual death. But one cannot be “born again” of his own will and choosing, can he? (John 1:13) You said yourself that man is so destitute that he cannot even believe the gospel on his own and yet you still expect him to? And hold him responsible when he can’t?
It is God who does the “willing” and the “choosing”… and FEW ARE CHOSEN!(“chosen”, not few who “choose”, as none can “choose”, so if it were up to us we would all still be lost).
The gospel is pretty simply…
God so loved THE WORLD that he sent His only begotten Son into the world, not to judge the world but that through Him the world might be saved; as such God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, now BE YE RECONCILED TO GOD!!
you said: I realize that I am referring to spiritual death. But one cannot be “born again” of his own will and choosing, can he? (John 1:13) You said yourself that man is so destitute that he cannot even believe the gospel on his own and yet you still expect him to? And hold him responsible when he can’t?
Aaron37: Yes. Man cannot believe on his own. That is why we have the Holy Spirit to convict people of thier need of the Savior when we preach the gospel. That is why God Faith is available for us to recieve to believe the gospel through the preaching of the word of God.
John 1:13 " Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God."
This verse is teaching that man cannot be born again or be reborn spirtually by their ethnic heritage(blood) nor can they obtain it by pro-creation ( the will of the flesh and man), but it is only obtained by the Holy Spirit regenerating your spirit by faith.( But of God)
Agreed! It is UP TO GOD!! It is HIS WORK of salvation, not ours. And though many are called, FEW ARE CHOSEN.
So unless you are a Calvinist and believe that God only chooses to save a “few” (the elect) and the rest are and always have been doomed from the start, then how do those whom GOD WILLS to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth not get saved when it is not up to them and what they can “do”, but it is up to God and what he has “done”?
If it is God’s will that none should perish and that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth and it is God who works in us both to will and to do on His good pleasure (as He works all things according to the counsel of His own will and will have all He desires) then why are “few” chosen"? Who are these “few” and what are they chosen for? Such that only a few “have eternal life” and the rest die in the sins never knowing God and Jesus Christ?
Is God not able to convert us, just as He converted Paul (who said that he is the pattern of those who would come to believe and have eternal life)?
Why did God show himself to doubting Thomas so that he would believe, but said blessed are those who believe WHO HAVE NOT SEEN? Is Thomas lost? Did Thomas die in his sins and go to hell? He did not have faith enough to believe without seeing, after all. Did Christ condemn him for it?
I don’t think you are following what I’m saying. The fact we are “born of God” means that we are born from above by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. How does that happen? By believing and recieving what Jesus di don the cross. You recieve the gift of faith to believe on Jesus. You can either receive it or resist it and remain lost.
I do not put God in a box how He converts people and how he uses believers to convert them, but that does not take away that you must believe and recieve Jesus’ finished work on the cross to be converted.
Aaron, which comes first? Are you born again because you first believed or do you believe because you were first born again?
I agree with you that to be “born again” means to be begotten from above, to be quickened/regenerated by the Holy Spirit. But I disagree with you when you say that this happens “by believing and receiving what Jesus did on the cross”.
We are not capable of believing and receiving what Jesus did on the cross without being “born again”. You say yourself, “You receive the gift of faith to believe on Jesus”. We have to RECEIVE THE GIFT OF FAITH “first” in order “to believe”.
That is not our doing… so how can one “resist” what GOD DOES?
It’s not about us; it’s about HIM.
And Jesus said: “if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me”.
There is A DRAGGING IN ~and~ A CASTING OUT.
ALL HAVE BEEN DRAGGED IN (both the good and the bad).
But those “without a wedding garment” are bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness.
What does that mean? Who is without a wedding garment?
What is the “dividing” of the sheep and the goats?
What is the separation of the wheat and the tares?
A dividing of “men”?
Or (perhaps) a dividing of the flesh (which PROFITS NOTHING) and the spirit (THAT IS SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD, through the destruction of THE FLESH)?
I think faith and regeneration happen at the same time when you recieve it. How can people resist the Holy Spirit? Be cause God has made us with ability to choose, we call it free-will. Ask the Jews why they stiff-necked the Holy Spirit in (Acts 7:51) Ask King Agrippa why he resisted Paul in( Acts 26:24-26) the truth is true reagardless if you believe it. The truth of the matter is ( it is biblically supported) that man can resist the Holy Spirit and remain lost.
Don’t we have to grow and add to our faith? And do all do that, even though we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise when we first believe??
Paul said that we can only “go on unto perfection” if God is willing, right? So even when it comes to those who believe some are on milk (being “babes” who are “yet carnal”) while others have been weaned from the breast and are able to go on, even unto “strong meat”, right?
The body has to grow into the head but not all members of the body serve the same purpose or have the same calling. Not all need to be prophets or apostles or teachers, etc, though SOME have been placed into the body for this very purpose - for the edification of the body. But that doesn’t mean that those who are “yet carnal” are not a part of the body or that they do not serve a purpose of their own, does it?
And even if we believe not, Christ remains faithful, does he not?
What does “free will” mean to the carnally-minded? Can the carnally-minded “choose” the things of God? So even having that choice before them means nothing, isn’t that right? It not a choice they will ever make, not on our own, not apart from being “born again”.
So why were the Jews stiff-necked? Why do I need to ask them? The scriptures tell me that it is because they were to be AN EXAMPLE TO US!
Why did King Agrippa resist Paul? Because he was not called, as was Paul, to be an Apostle and disciple of Jesus Christ and those born of the flesh have always (and will always) war against those born of the spirit (just as Paul did prior to his own conversion). And it is Paul who is the pattern set before us for the longsuffering and mercy of God, is it not?
I think, rather, that you simply doubt God’s sovereignty. Why is that? Why do you suppose the clay has any power at all? It is not the Potter who has the power over the clay - to make with it what HE WILL?
What do you think it means to be “chosen”?
What do you think it means that God “foreordained” certain things? That God “declared” the end from the beginning?
What do you think it means that we were “predestinated” unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ? That it is GOD works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His own will (whose will it is for ALL MEN to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth) so much so that it is HE who WORKS IN US ~both~ TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure?
Where do you get the idea that God is not COMPLETELY SOVEREIGN over ALL THINGS, including our very salvation?
Predestine means to know before hand. So, God simply predestined the salvation of mankind by sacrificing His Son on the cross before the foundation of the world and to adopt them as sons to anyone who will believe and receive Jesus’ finshed work on the cross. The elect or chosen are simply the ones who believe and receive Jesus’ finished work on the cross. No one was individually chosen by God for salvation. They were chosen by the foreknowledge of God forseeing them believing and receiving the gift of salvation that Jesus provided on the cross. ( Romans 8:29; 1 Peter 1:1-2)
I never said God was not soverign over all things, including salvation( He is), but not the way you view his sovereignty.
I disagree Aaron. Pre-destinated means pre-determine. Though God certainly foreknows all things, the scriptures say that God DECLARED the end from the beginning, not that he simply just “knew” what the end was going to be. The very fact that we are called CLAY in the potters hands demonstrates God’s sovereignty over man. Potter’s clay doesn’t form itself; it’s formed at the hands of the Potter and the end creation is a direct result of workmanship of the Potter, not a result of the clay’s ability to form or create itself.
Web definitions for predestine
decree or determine beforehand
What do you disagree with? God determined before the foundation of the world to redeem mankind by the means of the cross to all who would believe and recieve Jesus’ finished work. All who believe and receive are adopted as sons and daughters.
Aaron, you are the one who said “Predestine means to know beforehand”. I’m the one who said that it means to pre-determine or declare something to be. So I don’t have a problem with the meaning of the word at all; it seems the Web definition supports exactly what I said, doesn’t it? So if you want to explain what part of “decree” or “determine beforehand” simply means that God only “foreknew” what was going to happen but did not actually DECREE or DETERMINE IT BEFOREHAND, then go right ahead. I am all ears.
But I believe that God declared the end from the beginning and that all thing are working according to the counsel of His will; that not only has he spoken it, but he is also bringing it to pass; that what he purposed he will also do just as Isa 46 says. I do not believe that God just “predicted” the salvation of Israel, but that He purposed it and will bring it to pass. Likewise, I do not believe that God just “predicted” who would or would not be saved based on His “foreknowledge” of who would or would not choose salvation. I believe that he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the counsel of his own will, just as it says in Eph 1; for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, according to 1Ti 2:3-4.
Sorry, I mean’t determine beforehand. Like I said before, God determined beforehand or predestined to redeem mankind by the cross before the foundation of the world. Not certain individuals, but whoever believes and receives the gift of salvation. God is no respector of persons. He saw the fall of man before it happened and planned our redemption before Adam fell. Did you read Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:1-2? Pretty straight forward. By God’s foreknowledge we are predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son…We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled by His blood.
The definition of foreknowledge is to know in advance or beforehand.
I will go further to say ( since you are tooting the horn of God’s sovereignty the way you see it) Do you know how God chooses or elects people to salvation? Look no further but to 2 Thessalonians 2:13" But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has CHOSEN YOU FROM THE BEGINNING FOR SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT AND FAITH IN THE TRUTH."
Notice how we are chosen… How? Through God’s sovereign choice? Nope…Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
We are chosen through sanctication of the Spirit and believing and receiving the truth (Jesus)… Not by God choosing individuals sovereignly. Now that is Salvation.
Some people do not think they need a savior. These people consider themselves to be “basically good” and do not realize that they, like all people, are sinners who cannot come to God on their own terms. But Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Those who reject Christ will not be able to stand before God and successfully plead their own case on their own merits.
The fear of social rejection or persecution deters some people from receiving Christ as Savior. The unbelievers in John 12:42-43 would not confess Christ because they were more concerned with their status among their peers than doing God’s will. These were the Pharisees whose love of position and the esteem of others blinded them, “for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.”
For some people, the things that the present world has to offer are more appealing than eternal things. We read the story of such a man in Matthew 19:16-23. This man was not willing to lose his earthly possessions in order to gain an eternal relationship with Jesus (see also 2 Corinthians 4:16-18).
Many people are simply resisting the Holy Spirit’s attempts to draw them to faith in Christ. Stephen, a leader in the early church, told those who were about to murder him, “You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!” (Acts 7:51). The apostle Paul made a similar statement to a group of gospel rejecters in Acts 28:23-27.
Whatever the reason why people reject Jesus it has disastrous eternal consequences.
