Aaron37,
To get back to topic, what is your response to the original post. As I’ve read through the whole thread, you’ve still not addressed it.
Try to refrain from going on tangents on the OP (we’re all guilty so don’t take that as a warning or slam). It’s something I have to do as well.
I would like to hear you address the annhiliation of death, yet death remains.
Aaron, You still seem to be mixing God’s “foreknowledge” with what he “determined beforehand”, as you seem to be saying that God only determined that which He foreknew would happen (ie that God only determined to save those who he foreknew would choose salvation). And how does saving only those who “meet” a certain requirement not make God a respecter of persons? What if God was only determined to save men and not women? Or children and not adults? Or only red-heads? That wouldn’t make God a respecter of persons?
Even the verse that you quote (2 Thes 2:13) says that GOD CHOSE. And it is not “our faith” that saves us, Aaron. It is the faith OF CHRIST (whose body we are) that saves us. Any faith that we have ‘originates’ WITH HIM as HE IS the author (and the finisher) of it. And even if we BELIEVE NOT, yet HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL for He cannot deny HIMSELF (2 Tim 2:13)
You mention Rom 8:29 and 1 Pet1: 1-2 which speaks of God predestining those whom he foreknew and those who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Well who did God not foreknow? Who did He not form in the belly? Over whom is He not the Potter?
We are all part of “the elect”, as we are all ONE BODY, created IN CHRIST, who is “THE ELECT”. He is “THE CHOSEN ONE” and it is by being found “in Him” that we are saved. And He said: “If I be lifted up I shall draw all men unto me”. And by “draw” He meant “drag”.
If you look at the parables ALL are dragged into the wedding feast (both good and bad). Though once all have been dragged in, those “without a wedding garment” are bound hand and foot and cast out. Just as God saved all Israel out of the land of Egypt, but afterward destroyed them that believed not. You take that to mean that some are saved and some are not. Those who believe are saved and those who do not believe are cast out and in a sense that is true, but in order to rightly divide the parable you have to know who IS and who IS NOT “clothed” with a wedding garment and why we are told that even if we believe not, yet He abideth faithful for he cannot deny himself? And is it not “the natural man”, he who is “carnally minded” that needs to be destroyed and who is “bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness”? Could that not them be seen as the separation of the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, those with and those without a wedding garment? A dividing between the flesh and the spirit? Wherein it is the spirit that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing?
you said: Aaron, You still seem to be mixing God’s “foreknowledge” with what he “determined beforehand”, as you seem to be saying that God only determined that which He foreknew would happen (ie that God only determined to save those who he foreknew would choose salvation). And how does saving only those who “meet” a certain requirement not make God a respecter of persons? What if God was only determined to save men and not women? Or children and not adults? Or only red-heads? That wouldn’t make God a respecter of persons?
Aaron37: You are misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not mixing God’s foreknowledge with what he determined beforehand. Predestination simply means God determined beforehand to redeem mankind from the foundation of the world by the cross of Jesus Christ. Why? Because he knew Adam would fall before he fell. Foreknowledge has nothing to do with God determining which people to save. Foreknowledge simply means God saw beforehand all the people who would positively respond by faith to receive the free gift of salvation. God predestined salvation. He offers this free gift to all who will recieve it. God’s foreknowledge allows him to see in advance all the people who would positively respond by faith to receive his free gift. By offering this free gift to everyone ( including women, children and especially red-heads) makes him not a respector of persons. Understand?
you said: Even the verse that you quote (2 Thes 2:13) says that GOD CHOSE
Aaron37: God “CHOSE” salvation from the beginning through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Now, in order for you to be “chosen” you must be sanctfied by the Spirit? How? By faith in the truth (Jesus). Notice you are sanctified by the Spirit when you put your faith in the truth (Jesus). Notice you are not sovereignly being chosen individually by God. Notice in verse 14 "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. How? You receive it from your positive response by Faith to appropriate what God has done by grace… Not sovereignly being chosen individually by God to receive it.
Aaron, Adam didn’t “fall”; he transgressed the law because he was already in a fallen state. God is the one who formed him out of the dust of the ground (a natural/carnal man) and put him into this world KNOWING that he would be subject to “the lust of the flesh” and “the things of this world”. Man was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY by Him (GOD) who subjected the same IN HOPE. Life and immortality were NEVER to come through the first Adam/man, but through the LAST Adam (the second man), the “new creation”. The first vessel (the first/natural man) has to be DESTROYED because it is “marred” and A NEW VESSEL (the second/spiritual man) needs to be “created” and God is the Potter who accomplished that, not man.
Paul did not say that God chose salvation; he said God chose US (for salvation)… NOT “individually” but COLLECTIVELY - ALL MEN, even His entire creation groans, waiting to be DELIVERED from this bondage!
Paul’s message is not “for believers only” it is for all men. The cry is for all men to be reconciled to God, for He has already reconciled himself to us.
you said: Aaron, Adam didn’t “fall”; he transgressed the law because he was already in a fallen state. God is the one who formed him out of the dust of the ground (a natural/carnal man) and put him into this world KNOWING that he would be subject to “the lust of the flesh” and “the things of this world”. Man was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY by Him (GOD) who subjected the same IN HOPE. Life and immortality were NEVER to come through the first Adam/man, but through the LAST Adam (the second man), the “new creation”. The first vessel (the first/natural man) has to be DESTROYED because it is “marred” and A NEW VESSEL (the second/spiritual man) needs to be “created” and God is the Potter who accomplished that, not man.
Aaron37: Oh boy…
How can man be created in God’s image and according to His likeness be made flawed in a fallen state? Why would God make man flawed?
How can God call the creation of man “Good” when he made them flawed in a fallen state?
Would not Adam’s fallen state allow him to be conscious of his nakedness? Why was Adam and Eve not conscious of this?
How can fallen man be in God’s presence…walk with Him in the Garden and hear His voice without being spiritually alive?
Why did Adam and Eve sow fig leaves together to cover thier loins after they sinned and not before?
You can’t. But God did not create man in His image and after His likeness; he is creatING man in His image and after His likeness. It is a process, seen allegorically in the creation of the first Adam in Genesis. But it is not finished until we are conformed into the image of His Son - THE LAST ADAM.
Why can’t he? Was it not God’s intention for us TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL? How do you suppose we were to “know” good and evil with our experiencing it? (It was not until Adam sinned that God said "He has become AS ONE OF US TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL.)
Because their eyes were not opened until after they sinned and suffered the consequences of their disobedience.
Adam was not formed in the garden, he was placed there afterward and was not “made a living soul” UNTIL after he was placed in the garden. After he sinned he was removed from the garden (and the tree of life) and required to till the ground from which he came (which was not in the garden).
Because they did not know they were naked and in need of a covering until their eyes were opened. And neither was the covering that they provided for themselves sufficient… so GOD gave them a covering (though he still kicked them our of the garden).
Athisfeet.
you said: You can’t. But God did not create man in His image and after His likeness; he is creatING man in His image and after His likeness. It is a process, seen allegorically in the creation of the first Adam in Genesis. But it is not finished until we are conformed into the image of His Son - THE LAST ADAM.
Aaron37 God certainly did make man in his image and likeness. Gen 1:26 “God said, Lets make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness. verse 27 " God made man in his image”. What part of these scriptures do you not understand man being created in God’s image and likeness?
you said:
Why can’t he? Was it not God’s intention for us TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL? How do you suppose we were to “know” good and evil with our experiencing it? (It was not until Adam sinned that God said "He has become AS ONE OF US TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL.)
Aaron37: Because in Romans 3: 10-19… God describes unregenerated “fallen man”
There is none righteous, none who seek after God, none who does GOOD…etc
So, I ask again, How can God call man “Good” if he created them “Fallen” when according to Romans 3:10-19…God says unregenerated fallen man is not righteous, does not seek after him, and none of them do “Good”? That would be contradicting Himself don’t you think?
Aaron, if life and immortality were supposed to come through the first Ada, then Jesus Christ is “Plan B” and I don’t think that you believe that Jesus Christ was “Plan B” do you?
Adam is A FIGURE of him who was TO COME!! You do understand that, right?
If you will check the Hebrew you will see that “let us make” in Gen 1:26 is written in the imperfect tense, which indicates a condition that is INCOMPLETE. The process by which God “creates” man in His image and after His likeness is clearly laid out for us in Genesis, but it is not that which was “first formed” out of the dust of the ground that was created in His image. It is THEM (MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM - figures of Christ and the church) that God blessed and called Adam in the day that THEY WERE CREATED.
God surely starts out in Gen 1 with that which was “created in His image and after His likeness” but it is THEM (MALE AND FEMALE) not Adam alone. After we are told that God CREATED THEM in His image we are told HOW, in the subsequent chapters. And (1) God first formed Adam out of the dust of the ground (2) THEN God placed Adam into the garden that He planted (3) THEN God breathed the breath of life into Adam, making him A LIVING SOUL (4) THEN God made Eve from the rib of Adam (5) then God joined THEM together AS ONE FLESH and blessed THEM and called THEIR NAME Adam.
God breathing the breath of life into Adam to make him “a living soul” is analogous to God sending forth HIS SPIRIT by which we are “made alive” and “created in His image and after His likeness” (by being joined together with Christ, as was Eve to Adam - AFTER being “made” FROM HIM).
It’s all about HIM (and HIS BODY, who we are)!
As a side note, I know some who believe that ADAM was created both “male and female” and that Gen 1 is speaking only about “Adam” (God not yet having “made” Eve from His rib), but I don’t see how that can be since we already have God commanding them to “be fruitful and multiply” in Gen 1. But I believe that God was declaring THE END (that which was “created in His image and after His likeness”) FROM THE BEGINNING. Once this is done we are told “how” he did that and it began with “Adam” being “first formed out of the dust of the ground”.
By “fallen” I mean that Adam was not created perfect and immortal (which is how I assume most people think Adam “fell” when Adam sinned). But Adam (representative of all men) was neither perfect nor immortal and was always subject to the flesh and the things of this world, which is why God said that in the day that Adam sinned DYING he would DIE (and in so doing “fell” from grace).
As I see it we are not born “dead” (completely separated from God, which is why we need to RE-turn to God, why we need to RE-surrected) but we are born subject to the flesh and the things of this world, born with the propensity TO SIN. And, according to James, it is not UNTIL sin that is conceived is acted upon that we DIE. And this not because we are tempted of God, but because we are tempted OF OUR OWN LUSTS (seen in Eve in the garden).
Jam 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Compare the following passages:
1Jn 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.