The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Despair

Hello,

I am a 21-year old Christian and I have been going through a real rough time in my faith lately. I became a Christian just last year. I have been learning more about my faith and I finally read through the New Testament, finishing the Book of Revelation.

The problem is, now I feel such utter despair now that I know how the story ends! It seems that the vast majority of humanity gets thrown into a lake of fire. I talked with my pastor and other Christian friends and they basically said that yes, most people are not going to be saved, they will be damned, they will burn forever and all that.

I guess I’m kind of sensitive but this has made me so depressed! I feel like if that is the “endgame” then there is just no hope for most of the human race. I feel like this is the ending we are all marching toward day by day (after all, Judgment Day is closer today then it was yesterday) and I hate this ending! I can’t even feel joy today (Christmas) because of the thinking I’ve been doing about this subject. I have a history of depression in my family and I was depressed for years before I became Christian, and I feel that same way now.

I looked up different views of Hell and found out about universalism, which led me here. Could you all pray for me, and if possible, give me advice on this matter? Universalism seems like a much better ending to the story but I want to know more about it.

Thank you,

Nicholas

Hi Nicholas,
I sympathize with your despair over the common teachings about hell. We believe God’s judgment and wrath is an expression of God’s love, just as a parent disciplines a child in love for his own good. The lake of fire is not hopeless, endless torment – rather, it is the destruction of what Paul calls the “old man” so that the “new man” can be born.

Luk 2:10
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

The news is not yet joy to all people, but I believe it will be. :sunglasses:

“For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.” Col 1:20

Welcome!
Sonia

You can read through the posts and see what people here say. Or just wait until some come forth, to give you their perspectives.

The problem is, now I feel such utter despair now that I know how the story ends! It seems that the vast majority of humanity gets thrown into a lake of fire. I talked with my pastor and other Christian friends and they basically said that yes, most people are not going to be saved, they will be damned, they will burn forever and all that.

The key is that you are reading a bible translation not original scripture and human emotions actually do creep into how certain key greek words are translated. It makes a dramatic difference how the greek words for “eternal” and “judgment” and “hades” are translated and then do these translations match up against God’s will and character.

Welcome Nicholas. :slight_smile: You are in good company here. I too remember how depressed I felt when I thought the majority of God’s creation was destined to not be saved and would be in torment forever. I could not reconcile that with the God of love, and so after much struggling I threw the baby out with the bath water and gave up on God for a while… but Jesus looks for His lot sheep, and gradually he brought me back into His fold, and I started to realise that God does not torment someone forever with no hope of being forgiven and restored. Life experiences, prayer and waiting on God (this site too) all helped me to discover more about the God of love. A really good book that is very easy to read and backed up with scripture, is Rob Bell’s ‘Love Wins’. I found it a joy to read. I will be praying for you Nicholas. Praying the Holy Spirit will lead you into the truth of Jesus and God’s plan for all HIs creation. :smiley:

Nicholas,

Don’t despair; you are exactly what you ought to be, which is merciful and loving – like your Father. Only you have a simplistic understanding of scripture (which is precisely what ought not to have been taught to you.) Not that anyone has tried to deceive you. The deception goes much further back than that. First, regarding Revelation, I remember myself trying very hard to imagine locusts that looked like horses prepared for battle, with the faces of men, hair like women, crowns of gold, and teeth like lions – and don’t forget, the tails of scorpions. I’ve got a pretty good imagination, but I came up empty on that one. Not that I couldn’t imagine an image; I just couldn’t imagine one I could believe. Imagine my surprise to find what I ought to have seen right away. Revelation is an apocalypse. It was never intended to be taken literally.

Of course, I’d never heard of an apocalypse. I took everything at face value. I was exactly the sort of person CS Lewis was talking about when he said, “People who can’t understand books written for grown-ups shouldn’t attempt to comment on them.” Revelation particularly appealed to me because (like most of us) I wanted to understand things that would happen in the future, and like you, I found it dismaying. I swallowed my dismay, though, telling myself that I knew God was good and it would all work out. That was probably the most sensible thing I could have done at the time, with the limited knowledge I had.

So, in case you, like me at the time, don’t understand what an apocalypse is, think of Lewis Carroll’s “Through the Looking Glass.” There’s a segment in there where the Unicorn and the Lion have a battle for the crown. Makes no sense at all, but then it IS Lewis Carroll, and perhaps it’s not supposed to. In the book this is clearly an important battle, and imagine if you read Looking Glass as a book of prophecy and expected everything to literally happen. You’d have a giant lion and a giant unicorn battling it out for the crown, ripping the city apart as they went. If you believed that, it would distress you no end. But in truth it’s a satirical piece, and as it’s more or less contemporary, and a work of fiction, no one supposes it to be anything other than nonsense or satire. The Lion is England, and the Unicorn represents Scotland, which have a history of some conflict as I’m sure you’ve heard. It’s not an apocalypse, but apocalypses are like that. There are no monstrous locusts no huge cubical city, no lake burning with fire. I’d have to do more thinking than I like to do in the morning to interpret the locusts, but the city represents the people of God in a unified, loving community. (It is also representative of the Bride, who is also representative of the people of God).

As for the Lake of Fire, I personally believe this represents God Himself (our God is a consuming fire), and the thing that He consumes is sin and death and the grave, the adversary (the devil) and the false prophet. If anyone’s name is not found in the Book of Life (which represents, in my opinion, Jesus Himself), he is cast into the Lake of Fire." Earlier in the Apocalypse (as it used to be called) we see the elders standing around a sea of fire and crystal, with God on His emerald throne seated at the head of the circle. The lake of fire, elsewhere just outside the New Jerusalem, yet in this other picture appears to be before the very throne of God. That makes sense, as in a sense the ekklesia (church) IS the throne of God, the city of God. The gathering of the saints is then closer to God – one with Him, in fact. The lake of fire is only slightly further away, and the sinners are “tormented” in the presence of God and of His holy angels. George MacDonald (a big favorite around here) mentions that in the outer circles of God’s presence one feels the torment, while the closer one comes, the more delightful His presence becomes.

Please don’t go back now, to viewing this all literally. I’m still moving in the realms of metaphor and symbolism. The fire is symbolic too. Nearly everywhere in scripture (except in a very few occasions where it is just a natural fire), fire symbolizes purification – particularly of precious metals. The word used for “torment” has its sources in metallurgy, in which the metals are purified and then tested for purity and then either pronounced pure, or else purified some more until they ARE pure. If you read the Revelation carefully, you’ll see that AFTER being cast into the LoF, these very kings of the earth who were wicked before are now pouring into the City, bringing their riches to offer to the King of kings. After all, the gates to the city are never closed by day, and there is no night. Who are they open for if not for those outside the city, and who is outside the city if not the inmates of the LoF? At the very end of the Revelation, we see the Spirit and the Bride calling, “If anyone is thirsty let him come and drink of the Water of Life without cost.” This is the water which, if you drink of it, you will never thirst again; therefore, who is thirsty, if not the miserable wretches suffering in the LoF? They must let go their sins if they are to be delivered; it is their sins that cause their torment. Once they do that, they can leave that outer circle of God’s presence, while the sins/sinfulness burns to nothing. They can wash their robes, drink of the water, and enter the Holy City.

If you want to read more about this (by better writers), my very first recommendation would be The Inescapable Love of God by Tom Talbott. Then The Evangelical Universalist by Robin Parry (aka Gregory MacDonald), Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin – and there are many others as well, some good, some not so much.

Welcome to the group, and I hope you will find some comfort here, Nicholas. We’re delighted to have you with us. :slight_smile:

Cindy

Hey Nicholas (looks funny to be typing my name),
Welcome to the forum where people are encouraged and some even jump out of despair into the loving hands of the Father. It’s difficult to capture the essence of Love when the Bible so clearly seems to say that many will face the worst possible scenario. I’m curious to see your responses to others here.

After a while of reading the Bible a bit too literally, I discovered the Bible should be read through the lenses of the One who inspired it. Who would that be? Jesus! Jesus=God=Love! What does that mean? The Bible should be read not literally but symbolically. The symbols point to a bigger picture of how God loves and reconciles everyone to Himself because 1. God is sovereign and 2. God desires for all to be saved and 3. God is wise and patient enough to allow everyone by their own free will to accept Him and be sanctified whether before or after His 2nd Coming. Isn’t that good news or what? :smiley:

Hi Nicholas and welcome :slight_smile:

First of all, I’m very glad to hear you became a Christian last year. It’s wonderful to see that Christ is working in your life and it’s always an encouraging thing to read in a morning :wink:

I understand the despair you feel - it can be hard reading scripture sometimes due to its frequent complexity and on the face of it there are lots of passages that can strike us as odd or harsh or just generally depressing. We’re all working through it, trying to increase the depth of our understanding, trying to get a grasp of the bigger picture and it can take a long time to do that.

Everyone knows what it’s like to be reading a passage and thinking “I wish this wasn’t in there.” There are enough of those passages that even when we find the true meaning of a particular one, the meaning that Jesus wants us to have in our hearts, we’ll quickly find another passage and suddenly the struggle starts again.

Don’t feel the need to think that you’re too sensitive when you hate the notion of humans perishing for all eternity - the fact that you despair at the idea is a sign that you hold close to the heart of God on this, who desires all to be saved and takes absolutely no pleasure in the death of the wicked. His heart is that everyone will come to love Him just as He loves them and that they would be reconciled to Himself and to each other. Whatever else we find, this is a clear biblical teaching and nobody can take anything away from that. God’s heart is for mercy, forgiveness and changing lives, never ignoring sin but destroying it. Cindy wrote a wonderful little summary on the book of Revelation in relation to the purposes of the Lake of Fire so if you didn’t read it, read it now! And if you did read it, read it again :laughing:

I’d encourage you to stay around on here. If you have any questions, just ask, start a thread (I think you’re only allowed to start one a week, possibly with the exception of the ‘Members Only Area’, where I think you can start more [if a mod could confirm this, that would be nice!]) There are plenty of resources on this site, plenty of discussions, plenty of great posts on a variety of subjects and passages so if you’re struggling with one, type it in on the search bar (you might want to use 'Advanced Search if you want to search for specifics) and have a look through. If you can’t find anything sufficient or if you want to ask a question that you just can’t think through or find an answer for, just start a thread.

I want to say that once you start looking and thinking through this sort of stuff, you can get into a very analytically-focused mindset, even obsession, so I’d watch out for that. I’ve found that you can think too much about this sort of stuff and it impacts your relationship with Jesus. If you ever find yourself getting too stressed out or too occupied with the meaning of a particular passage or something like that, take a step back and just focus on Jesus. You can’t go wrong doing that.

Also if you’re having problems with depression, please do get help for it. Don’t just sit there and suffer with it, even if you just think that it’s this subject that is setting it off.

Great to have you here, look forward to reading your posts in the future :smiley:

Jonny

Hey Nicholas!

I would recommend “Hope Beyond Hell”. It’s my favorite. I have been diagnosed with schizoaffective (bipolar type). So I understand despair as well. I haven’t felt a huge amount of despair in awhile. I take medication and with my Doctor’s supervision I also take the vitamins Niacin and fish oil for my condition. I’m doing great. As far as my spirituality goes I attend A.A./N.A. almost every day and keep in touch with people including my sponsor. I write little devotionals and do creative arts therapy by writing poetry. It has helped me tremendously. A good book on this is called, Poetry Therapy - theory and practice. Anyway, glad you are here. Stick around if you like. I pray things will get better for you.

Thank you everyone for your kind responses!

All of your comments have been very comforting. I think you all raise good points.

I had been thinking about this issue on and off for a few weeks before I posted here. The whole thing really did put a damper on me, sort of like an existential crisis or something. I felt if that’s the way things were going to end for most (or at least many) people then it would be hard for me to have hope. I mean, I have hope personally, individually because I believe I’m going to heaven but humanity as a whole didn’t seem to have much hope, based on what I read.

I did have something of a breakthrough last night. I was doing some Bible-reading, reading some of the material on this site, and reading some stuff written by a guy named Jurgen Moltmann (he’s a great writer!). Anyway, I just felt a real sort of peace about the whole thing, like God was telling me to let it go, that He was going to take it off my shoulders.

So I am definitely going to take a break from thinking about this subject and just focus on Jesus. I will only look into these sorts of issues again if I feel led by the Spirit to do so.

And I do still struggle with depression sometimes. It’s just a part of my family. My mother and my aunt have it and my great-grandfather and great-aunt committed suicide because of it. That genetic inheritance is just a part of living in a fallen world I suppose. I do take medicine and go to therapy meetings occasionally. So with God’s help I’m doing alright.

Nicholas

All the best Nicholas. There’s plenty of good material on this site, and many good people to ask questions. There’s also good material on the web and YouTube, though be careful where you look. Moltmann is a world renowned theologian, and a universalist :slight_smile:. You might other good universalist material in the writings of Thomas Talbott and Robin Perry (who I do believe has some nice short youtube interviews online).

Take care, and have a great new year!

Praying for your despair, QC. Glad to see you’re finding some comfort here – we don’t all believe exactly the same things about RevJohn, so you’ll find different ideas about it depending on who answers; but it’s using highly poetic dream imagery so that’s to be expected. Then again, so were the OT prophets and some of those images came quite literally true with Jesus, though not all of them, or not all yet, so…!

To be fair, many non-universalists also don’t take RevJohn overly ‘literally’ yet still get various sorts of non-UR results from it; whereas I’ve read strongly universalist Christians who take it as literally as the “Left Behind” authors or even moreso! So ‘taking it literally’ isn’t the problem.