The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Devils

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#21

I can’t remember if Bill Bixby (who I knew as Tim O’hara in “My Favorite Martian” when I was growing up) died a suicide, or drank and drugged himself to death, or just happened to die young after having a particularly tragic life, but back when I was relatively happy and carefree, and wondering what happened to him, I read about the last few years of his life, and about the pain and guilt he had to live with. He lost someone in his custody, who was dependent on him, because he made a mistake. Even if the mistake was letting someone else have custody for the weekend, I don’t think that was any comfort to him. When you lose someone because of mistakes you made, it doesn’t make any difference that you didn’t see them at the time. You know you should have.

If a pill could make that pain go away, you wouldn’t be any better for taking it–you’d be worse.

You’d be less feeling and less human.

Unless they had a client who had no real reason to be depressed, I don’t think a competent psychiatrist would leap to the conclusion that their depression was caused by some chemical imbalance in the brain.

And unless there was such an imbalance, I believe it would be wrong to try and alter the brain chemistry just to make the patient feel better.

As to having no reason to be depressed, the only licensed cousellor I’ve spoken to (a family member whose familiar with details you’re not, and who was here for part of what happened) suggested that I’m suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.

I regret trying antidepresants because I wanted to feel better (and because of the advise given me by unlicensed practioners), and my doctor seems to agree it was unecessary.

Maybe it would have been better if I’d been able to agree to hospice, but I hated the word.

I couldn’t agree to that, and maybe that’s just another mistake I made.

I thank you for those words of comfort.

And I thank you for actually addressing some of my questions in your other post.

I’d like to address some of the things you said there, but dad and I have been out most of the day, I’m tired, and I’ll have to get to it later.

#22

Michael, to be human is to make mistakes. I have made mistakes in both my personal and professional life. Effective treatment of my MI has not made me forget or cease to regret any of them. Nor would I want it to. But treatment does allow me to think about other things too and not obsess on mistakes.

Whether or not to use hospice services is a personal decision, there is no right or wrong in it, only individual circumstances and beliefs.

We cannot go backwards, we can only go forward doing the best we can.

#23

That’s interesting.

I don’t think I’ve ever thought of them as emotional–but good angels would have to be capable of positive emotions like love and compassion, and if you’re capable of emotion, maybe those emotions are capable of being twisted (and negative emotions can blind the intellect.)

I hadn’t thought of that.

I believe there’s one scripture that indicates pride was a factor.

He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. (1 Tim. 3:6.)

That’s pretty much what Jason said on another thread, and it would make a lot of sense to me but for James 2:19.

If the demons didn’t believe that God is the ground of all being, if they thought there could be some other ground of being, how could they know there wasn’t another God somewhere?

What did God mean when He inspired James to write “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!”?

I thank you for the thoughts you offered here.

Please share any more you have.

#24

My heart goes out to you, Michael.

God bless you and save you from your pain.

Love

Johnny

#25

Thank you.

#26

To Lizabeth (or anyone else with thoughts on the subject):

That’s interesting.

I don’t think I’ve ever thought of them as emotional–but good angels would have to be capable of positive emotions like love and compassion, and if you’re capable of emotion, maybe those emotions are capable of being twisted (and negative emotions can blind the intellect.)

I hadn’t thought of that.

I believe there’s one scripture that indicates pride was a factor.

He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. (1 Tim. 3:6.)

If they thought they could change God’s mind, knew better than He did, thought or think they can win, or did not know how powerful He is, wouldn’t that mean they didn’t really know who and what God is?

That’s pretty much what Jason suggested on another thread (and it would make a lot of sense to me but for James 2:19.)

If the demons didn’t believe that God is the ground of all being, if they thought there could be some other ground of being, how could they know there wasn’t another God somewhere?

What did God mean when He inspired James to write “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!”?

#27

the Bible does neither explain the origin of demons nor their exact nature, it even does hardly say anything about their future punishment, so we should make no speculations about it

#28

They do not choose between good or evil, they are created things; They cannot repent because they are not being, they are spirit.

#29

They are spirit, and we know the origin of all things including spirits.

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;** all things have been created through him and for him**.

Ephesians 3:8-11 …make known to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, **who created all things. **His intent was that now, through the [us], the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His eternal purpose…

**Revelation 4:11 **“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

#30

That’s not entirely true.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into agelasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matt. 25:41.

And whether it’s a flashback, a revelation of what was happening in heaven 2,000 years ago, or a flash forward at the time John saw it, the Bible says this about the devil and his angels.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:7-9.)

You could argue that they haven’t been entirely cast out of heaven yet, but whether or not that’s true, the Bible seems to clearly establish heaven as their place of origin (and since man was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, it would seem clear that they’re not biological entities.)

I have no idea what that means, and I don’t think you do either.

The last Adam was made a life-giving spirit, wasn’t He?

Does He have being?

Does He choose between good and evil?

Are men created things?

Do they chose between good and evil?

Can they repent?

So what is “They do not choose between good or evil, they are created things; They cannot repent because they are not being, they are spirit” supposed to mean?

What is “they cannot repent because they are not being, they are spirit” supposed to mean?

Did some figment of the Gadarenes’ imagination cause those pigs to rush off the cliff and drown themselves?

Isn’t this really just double talk?

#31

Indeed, just go look at the definition of spirit, you will know what it is.

The life-giving spirit only exists in the resurrection of the dead and therefore was already being prior to being made a life-giving spirit.

No, He is a human being, made a life-giving spirit so at that time, evil does not exist to choose.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

No.

#32

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:36-39.)

For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. (Acts 23:8.)

**And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees’ part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. ** (Acts 23:9.)

And once again (as I asked Catherine), did a figment of human imagination cause a herd of swine (outside the troubled men from whom Jesus cast the demons) to rush off a cliff and drown in the water below?

And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils. And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts. (Matt. 8:28-34.)

The Sadducees recognized only the first five books of Moses as scripture.
**
Is that your position?**

Really?

Do you mean the definition of the English word in aan English Dictionary, or the Greek word in a Greek Lexicon?

How about this definition from Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance?

Strong’s Number: 4151 pneu=ma
Original Word Word Origin
pneu=ma from (4154)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Pneuma pnyoo’-mah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 6:332,876
Definition

1.) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \Holy\ Spirit)
b. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \Truth)
c. never referred to as a depersonalised force
2.) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a. the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b. the soul
3.) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a. a life giving spirit
b. a human soul that has left the body
c. a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1. used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4.) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a.) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5.) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a. of the wind, hence the wind itself
b. breath of nostrils or mouth

Translated Words
KJV (385) - (Jesus’ own) ghost, 2; (Jesus’ own) spirit, 6; (My) Spirit, 3; (evil) spirit, 47; Holy Ghost, 89; Spirit, 111; Spirit (of Christ), 2; Spirit (of God), 13; Spirit (of the Lord), 5; Spirit (of truth), 3; human (spirit), 49; misc, 21; spirit, 8; spirit (general), 26;

NAS (380) - Spirit, 239; breath, 3; spirit, 103; spirits, 32; spiritual, 1; wind, 1; winds, 1;

#33

This was interesting.

In this case, it might be that Origen denied that Satan would be saved for “Satan” is to Lucifer what “the sinful nature”/“the flesh”/“the old man” is to us. For God to save us “the old must pass away” and there must be new creation (2 Cor 5). So perhaps, for God to redeem fallen angels he must annihilate their demonic aspect. Thus it would be that Satan and his demons would be lost forever — damned — even as God saves Lucifer and his angelic followers.

Gregory of Nyssa was even more bold than Origen on this issue: He maintained that "the originator of evil himself will be healed” (Catechetical Orations 26. The Catechetical Oration of Gregory of Nyssa. Edited by James H. Srawley. Cambridge, 1903, p. 101).

Again, it partly depends on what you think of the ontology of “the demonic.” If you do not think that Satan and evil spirits are individual persons, created good yet now fallen (and there are various ways in which one may try to make that move), then they are essentially evil forces and thus irredeemable. But if you do take the classical view that demons are rational souls — non-human persons — then there is something to be said for the approach of Origen and Gregory. Food for thought.I tend to agree with Gregory of Nyssa.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2104

Does anyone know what Gregory thought about why the fallen angels rebelled, and why they’ve persisted so long in their rebellion?

Do any of our resident philosophers have any ideas?

#34

I typed in ‘Gregory of Nyssa fallen angels’ in google and a couple of links took me to our very own James Goetz :smiley:

James, are you able to help us here? :sunglasses:

#35

You might find this interesting; I did.

bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/166.htm

#36

I found this interesting.

equip.org/articles/george-m-lamsa/

Do you think Mr. Lamsa should have been cautious in talking about sixth senses, psychic powers, or latent talents like intuition and clairvoyance?

Do you think there are some schizophrenics who mistakenly think they have such powers, and that such talk could possibly aggravate their condition?

I suspect there are, and I suspect it could.

I also suspect that talk of demons could be disturbing to some, but there’s far more evidence of their existence in the Bible than there is of any latent psychic powers in man.

“There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils.” One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. The devils are equally pleased by both errors, and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight." C.S. Lewis.

So if they exist, can they be saved?

Can they repent, and why haven’t they?

How much do they know about who and what God is, and what does James 2:19 mean?

Whether he was right or wrong, Aquinas offered answers to some of those questions.

According to him they never thought they could defeat God, and they never actually tried.

Their sin was in that they wanted too, and that was enough for them to fall from heaven.

He says that they haven’t repented because they can’t.

As pure spirits they had a perfect knowledge of good and evil, and who God was, and they chose evil.

So do Evangelical universalists have any answers to these questions, or must they deny the existence of the devil and demons (even if it means resorting to strained interpretations of scripture like George Lamsa’s interpretation of Matt. 8:31-32)?

#37

Equp.org: fundies. Creationists.

'Nuff said.

#38

Edgar Cayce, A.R.E., sixth sense, clairvoyance, nuff said.

I would also point out that classic Universalists like Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and Theodore of Mopsuestia (of George Lamsa’s Assyrian Church of the East, who lived much closer to the time of Christ, and should have been aware of these alleged idioms) never denied the existence of a personal devil, and his demons.

#39

How does a “demon” derive its energy? Does i eat “demon food”? Do demons see? Do they have demon eyes with demon pupils and irises? If “demons” are non-material beings, does gravity affect them? How do they stay on a rotating and revolving earth?

You see the problem here and why 21st century people may have doubts.

#40

No I don’t.

There are 21st century people who believe in extra-terrestrials, channeling, extradimensional beings, other universes, and much stranger things than angels and demons.

As far as demons being non-material, Augustine seemed to disagree with Aquinas on that.

He seemed to think they had bodies of some kind (though they were usually invisible to us.)

And as far as how they’d derive their energy, how do you suppose we will when we’re resurrected?

Do you believe that biological life is the only kind of life that’s possible?

Do you deny the resurrection?