I doubt all. But the idea of invisible, inaudible, non-material creatures looks too similar to non-existant creatures. I don’t accept the existance of Jinnis either.
But back to “equip.org”; don’t they deny evolution?
You mean the resurrection, and any life that isn’t wholly biological, don’t you?
**What about the existence of God? **
Does “the idea of an invisible, inaudible, non-material” God look too similar to a non-existant God to you?
Tell the truth, wouldn’t you like to reduce God to positive thoughts, desires, and practices (the same way you’ve tried to reduce the devil to negative thoughts, desires, and practices)?
I don’t know if they deny evolution, and I don’t care.
Evolution is not a tenet of my faith, it’s not a subject that interests me, and it’s not the topic of this thread.
My questions were to the “evangelical universalists” here (and if you don’t believe in the resurrection, the possibility of non-biological life, or the existence of God, you’re obviously not one of them.)
Now back to the topic of the thread–if there are any Bible-believing “evangelical universalists” here, I would again like to ask you how your Theology can account for the persistent super-human evil of the devil and demons?
Did they ever know God for who and what He is (as seems suggested by James 2:19)?
What did they ever hope to gain?
What do they hope to gain now?
If they can repent, why didn’t they after the first hundred years of rebellion?
After the second hundred years?
After the first millennium?
Don’t any of our great thinkers have anything to say here?
Didn’t Origen, or Gregory of Nyssa, or St. Isaac the Syrian, or George MacDonald?
I did say all.
Yes, I doubt that too. Many people, even Christians doubt these things.
That’s true, and doubts lead to questions.
When I have questions about the Christian faith, or about Evangelical Universalism, I’m interested in the thoughts of believers (and that’s why the questions here are addressed to them.)
So getting back to the topic of this thread–if there are any Bible-believing “Evangelical Universalists” here, I would again like to ask you how your Theology can account for the persistent super-human evil of the devil and demons?
Did they ever know God for who and what He is (as seems suggested by James 2:19)?
What did they ever hope to gain?
What do they hope to gain now?
If they can repent, why didn’t they after the first hundred years of rebellion?
After the second hundred years?
After the first millennium?
**
Don’t any of our great thinkers have anything to say here?**
@ Michael, what I meant was, we do not know how and why demons (former good angels ?) became demons, of course God created them in the first place and they belong to “the whole” that God created and will reconcile to himself
the passages about future punishment are figurative and we know little about the angelic world, so why speculating about it? - what’s dealing with speculations from mere men, like Aquinas worth to?
the bible says there a demons, God created everything (this includes demons) and everythig will be reconciled, is there more we need to know?
of course you can discuss about this issues if you’re interested and make speculations, I’m just questioning if it is profitable to do so
Thank you sven.
I’m not sure the passages that speak of everything being reconciled are as unambiguous as I once thought they were.
And as for the future punishment of demons being figurative, I think you’re reasonable enough to agree that phrases like “aionian fire,” and “tormented unto the ages of ages” convey something very bad (and can’t convey willing servants of God’s purpose receiving a hearty pat on the back, by any stretch of the imagination.)
What troubles me is the logic of Aquinas’ position.
Peter said “Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” (1 Peter 5:8.)
Paul said “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (Eph. 6:12.)
And John (in the book of Revelation) portrayed Satan and his demons actively at war with Christ and His church in the last days of this eon.
They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. (Rev. 16:14.)
If they’re intelligent enough to realize they can’t win, and they can repent, why haven’t they?
And if they’re not intelligent enough to realize they can’t win, what does James 2:19 mean?
(I.E, How could they know “God is one,” without knowing that He’s the almighty ground of all being, and how could they know that without knowing they can’t win?)
When I consider these questions, I end up wondering if the ETers could be right (or if the doubters could be right, and we’re all wrong.)
Indeed, and that is why spirits are not conscious beings, but spirits. Demons are evil spirits, nothing more. There are no fallen angels, only fallen messengers (men who knew the truth but never taught it, and extorted it for their own personal gain.)
Where do evil spirits come from?
You got it.
They come from God.
1 Samuel 18:10
The next day an evil spirit (demon) from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved [madly] in his house…
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; F6 only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. (Job. 1:6-12.)
And
**Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; F6 only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. ** (1 Kings 22:19-23.)
In both instances, God is represented as using these evil spirits for his own purposes, but Satan is clearly represented as a conscious being with a malicious intent of his own (and the spirit who volunteered to inspire lies presumably had some motive of his own.)
And does the fact that God sent or used them excuse them of their motives?
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into agelasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels… (Matt. 25:41.)
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? (Matt. 8:29.)
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night – to the ages of the ages. (Rev. 20:10.)
Read in context, none of these passages are talking about men, and they all represent evil spirits as conscious beings (who are accountable for their own actions.)
**
You can try to reinterpret these passages (and there are many more) as figurative, but Christ’s personal encounters with demons take place within the historical narratives of the Gospel accounts (and contain supernatural elements like the nearby herd of swine being violently affected by the demons being cast out of the men), and if you feel free to take them figuratively, you can just as easily take the miracles, the crucifixion, and the empty tomb figuratively.**
Also, for a 19th century rationalist (like George Lamsa) to claim that frequently used words like “cast out” and “enter” were nothing but cultural idioms is tantamount to saying that the ancients didn’t literally believe in evil spirits, and we know that isn’t true (and the idea that such a latecomer could claim to understand first century cultural idioms better than Theodore of Mopsuestia–a forth century universalist bishop of his Church, who spoke the same language, belonged to the same culture, lived closer to the time of Christ, and nevertheless believed in both a personal devil and literal demons–is beyond absurd.)
And if spirits aren’t conscious beings, what about good angels?
Was Gabriel just a man, or a figment of Daniel’s imagination?
Did some mortal man announce Our Lord’s birth four centuries after he appeared to Daniel, or did the virgin Mary just imagine that?
He certainly sounds like a conscious being here.
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest’s office before God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest’s office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season. (Luke 1:5-20.)
This was four centuries after Gabriel was sent to Daniel.
Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. (Daniel 9:21.)
And six months before he was sent to a virgin in Nazareth.
And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (Luke 1:26-31.)
Do you deny the virgin birth too?
I guess that’s something some 21rst century people might have trouble believing, but if you concede that Gabriel and his fellow angels are conscious beings, how do you explain this?
**Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days…Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. **(Daniel 10:12-14, 20-21.)
If Gabriel and Michael are good angels, and these are personal beings, who are these kings of Persia?
**All attempts to deny the existence of demons are just evidence of how lightly some of us take the Bible, and my questions still stand.
**If they’re intelligent enough to realize they can’t win, and they can repent, why haven’t they?
And if they’re not intelligent enough to realize they can’t win, what does James 2:19 mean?
(I.E, How could they know “God is one,” without knowing that He’s the almighty ground of all being, and how could they know that without knowing they can’t win?)
if there are any Bible-believing “Evangelical Universalists” here, could one of you at least try to answer these questions?
Do you all find it necessary to deny the existence of a personal devil, and demons?
Do you all defer to the thinking of St. Thomas Aquinas here?
Once again, he said that demons cannot repent because angels are pure spirits, and as such perceive things directly (as they are), and when they chose evil they knew what they were doing and the consequences, and their choices are permanent.
**
Do you all agree that all that follows if angels and demons actually exist?**
I believe there is a devil and demons, there is no necessity to believe in a PERSONAL devil or demons.
Angels and demons do exist, they do not have to follow what religious rhetoric has taught you to think they are.
The fact remains, the 2nd Century Christianity is mixed with pagan Roman philosophy and religion as much as 1st Century Jew was mixed with Babylonian concepts.
Jesus corrected these thinking, and never upheld such notions even reasoning against the an angellic rebellion from Heaven, and the religion of Beelzebub, calling the Pharisee on their BS.
Really?
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils. And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts. (Matt. 8:28-34.)
Jesus either had a personal conversation with the conscious beings who were possessing these men, and cast them out of the men and into the swine in front of witnesses, OR HE WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO UPHOLD THE ERRONEOUS NOTIONS HELD BY HIS CONTEMPORARIES.
(i.e. He healed the men of some malady, and inflicted it on the pigs, so that they’d run off the cliff and the people would think…what?)
He nowhere attempted to correct the prevailing opinion that demons are personal beings, and He had many opportunities.
Not only that, but since the Sadducee’s denied the existence of angels and spirits (and the Epicureans, among the gentiles, were equally materialistic) He wouldn’t have been introducing a wholly new idea that the ignorant people of His day would be entirely unable to accept.
**If you know of even one passage where He suggests that demons are anything other than personal beings, please quote chapter and verse.
You can’t, because no such passage exists.**
And yet you keep stating your opinions as facts, and attempting to derail this thread.
I know what you believe.
There’s not a thread of Biblical evidence to support your opinion.
And it’s not something that anyone would have been stoned for suggesting in the second Temple period (when the Sadducee’s ran the Temple, and the Epicureans were arguing against those who took the Greek myths literally), and neither Jesus or His Apostles ever said one word to indicate that demons were figurative, or mythological, or imaginary.
You obviously care more about your opinions than anything the Bible says, and you’re welcome to them, but my questions are addressed to those who do care what it says (If there are, or ever were any here.)
Once again: if there are any Bible-believing “Evangelical Universalists” here, could one of you at least try to answer these questions?
If demons are intelligent enough to realize they can’t win, and they can repent, why haven’t they?
And if they’re not intelligent enough to realize they can’t win, what does James 2:19 mean?
(I.E, How could they know “God is one,” without knowing that He’s the almighty ground of all being, and how could they know that without knowing they can’t win?)
Do you all find it necessary to deny the existence of a personal devil, and demons?
(In other words, do you all find the conclusion reached by Thomas Aquinas unavoidable if they exist?)
Does anyone (who actually believes they exist) have anything to say?
If so, please reply.
It would seem that no one here has any answers to the questions you’ve raised.
So maybe you should start considering the possibility that Aquinas was right.
Maybe, but Catherine might have a point here.
I mean, if angels are pure spirits, and “perceive things directly, and as they are” (as Aquinas says they do), how could they choose evil over good (knowing what they were doing, and all the consequences, as Aquinas says they did)?
And I find it difficult to believe that God would create them knowing they’d do that, couldn’t be killed, and would have to be tormented forever.
I guess you’d say that was their choice, and God gave them freewill, and maybe you and Aquinas are right.
I don’t know anymore.
And I have to admit that there don’t appear to be a lot of Theologians here.
Michael, I’m still looking into this. I’ve got some material to read through and will come back to you asap.
The more I look into this, the more I’m confused. Let’s hope one or more of the four living creatures doesn’t rebel. Let’s hope Michael or Gabriel don’t change their minds… 
It makes no sense that some angels were able to rebel around the time humans came on the scene. It’s as if we were the catalyst and caused them jealousy, which is ridiculous. We’re the mortal underdogs. Was there a short window of opportunity for them to rebel? None of this makes sense.
Thank you Catherine, but I don’t know what makes you think the angels who sinned fell only when man came on the scene.
C.S. Lewis once made this observation.
"The origin of animal suffering could be traced, by earlier generations, to the fall of man–the whole world was infected by the uncreating rebellion of Adam. This is now impossible, for we have good reason to believe that animals existed long before men. Carnivorousness, with all that it entails, is older than humanity. Now it is impossible at this point not to remember a certain sacred story which…has been widely believed in the Church and seems to be implied in several Dominical, Pauline, and Johannine utterances–I mean the story that man is not the first creature to rebell against his Creator, but that some older and mightier being long since became apostate and is now the emperor of darkness and (significantly) the lord of this world." (The Problem of Pain, page 122.)
Even a German rationalist by the name of A.E. Knoch (who seemed to believe that God created the devil exactly as the enemy he now is) saw a gap in Genesis i:2, and continually spoke of what he called “the disruption” (without ever explaining what caused it.)
And here’s what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about it.
newadvent.org/cathen/12370a.htm
So I see no reason to assume that the angels fell at the same time Adam and Eve were created, and every reason to believe they fell long before they came on the scene.
I’m not as interested in the origins of Satan and his demons as I am in their nature, and in whether they can repent.
This is a new idea for me, but it’s starting to make a little more sense.
Revelation 12:12 reads “Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
And Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance defins the word translated wrath as follows:
**
1.) passion, angry, heat, anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again
2.) glow, ardour, the wine of passion, inflaming wine (which either drives the drinker mad or kills him with its strength)**
And Jesus once said to some of the Jews of His day “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” (John 8:44.)
The word “lust” has a wide range of meanings (sexual lust, lust for power, lust for blood, etc.), but it always seems to suggest some strong emotion that can overpower the intellect.
That could explain a lot (and reminds me of something Gregory of Nyssa said that I may try to find later.)
Thank you.
Hi Catherine
(I thought you might find this interesting.)
Before Aquinas thought of angels as pure (i.e. wholly immaterial?) spirits, a Church father by the name of Athenagoras had a somewhat different view (which actually ties in with what Lewis wrote in “The Problem of Pain.”)
christianbookshelf.org/richardso … ans_by.htm
That’s why found the above quote interesting.
Athenagoras “studied a lot more theology than I ever will and knew enough languages to study texts in their original form plus was centuries closer to the writing and/or transcribing of said texts” than Aquinas, and he offered a theory of angeology that seems more compatible with the universalist speculations of Church fathers like St. Gregory of Nyssa (quote.)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf205 … xviii.html
You and Catherine (and Johnnyparker) are the only one’s who even tried to say anything helpful here, and I thank you.
Does anyone else have any thoughts?
Hi Michael, thanks for those quotes. They are indeed interesting.
Here’s what I’m reading:
If you glance down at the list of chapters, you can see that it’s a very thorough overview of the devil, satan and demons. I was disappointed to see that there wasn’t a separate chapter on Gregory of Nyssa, but he may well be mentioned in one of those chapters. I haven’t got that far yet.
Neither Origen and Augustine seemed to agree with Aquinas about angels being pure spirit.
Religion pollutes the truth.
2 Corinthians 3:14-16
In fact, their minds were grown hard and calloused [they had become dull and had lost the power of understanding]; for until this present day, when the Old Testament (the old covenant) is being read, that same veil still lies [on their hearts], not being lifted [to reveal] that in Christ it is made void and done away. Yes, down to this [very] day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their minds and hearts. But whenever a person turns [in repentance] to the Lord, the veil is stripped off and taken away.
The only words that matter are Jesus, not the ‘fathers’ of Christianity, but the Son of God. Speculation of demons and spirits based on any other words, is religion and it blinds and makes one dull and lose the power of understanding. Stop looking to Christianity for answers, look to Christ and Him alone.