There are many verses in the bible that indicate that the word of God(The words spoken by Jesus who was God ) came from the beginning of creation. How was this accomplished? Did God appear in the flesh in the very beginning to speak His word? What name did He go by? If this is so then my guess would be that He also told the people at that time that He would return someday, just as we know this from what Jesus said.
Here are a few verses that make me think that God appeared as a man in the beginning.
Isaiah 48:16 Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there.
Isaiah 51:1 Listen to me, you who follow righteousness, who seek the Lord: look to the rock from which you were hewn.
Concerning the forefather in the wilderness, Corinthians 10:4 says this: All drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
1 John 2:13 I write to you fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
Isaiah 44:6 I am the First and I am the Last: besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:8 Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock.
Hebrew 12:2 Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
My opinion is that God’s speech transcends all flesh, and that He spoke before there was anything at all, and His first word was Jesus, the Logos of God. Again, imo, this was conceived in His mind before it was executed by the “word”(Jesus-Colosians 1 15-20, Hebrews 1:1-3 and John 1:1-3) - as God is described as being a spirit, and as being the invisible almighty God, and that no man has seen Him at anytime, except the Son who has “revealed Him”- how? By being the fulness of the deity in bodily form, the radiance of the Father’s glory and exact representaion(icom) of His nature.
I think Jesus, as the “only begotten” is the first and only incarnation of God- “He is the fulness of deity in bodily form”.
For a Trinitarian, Jesus, as eternal with the Father, would have always been there to “speak”, so again, I just don’t see an earlier incarnation under any paradigm.
By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that that which is seen is not made from that which is visible. Heb 11:2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.John 1:1,2
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word** of His power. Heb 1:1-3
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.** He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together**. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:15-20
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ, For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; Col 2:8-10
God is omnipresent and ominscient so His “speech” is everywhere- it is the foundation of the visible cosmos.
The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge. Psalm 19**
I have always understood that God walking in the cool of the evening in the garden of Eden, talking with Adam and Eve, is just one of the Christophanies. Jesus the eternal one, YAHWEH clothed in flesh.
Eaglesway,
You mention in your post that no man has seen God at anytime except the Son who has revealed Him. To me, a Son or son of God is any man who loves and follows God. Luke 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. If the first of mankind were sons of God, they would have been the first ones to see God in bodily form and then passed this information on. This is how we would “all be taught by God”.
Also, you mention that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. To be born means to bring into existence. Yet God is eternal, He is not born. I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. In this case God could be born by creating Himself in a different form. So if He is the firstborn, this would suggest that He came in bodily form in the beginning.
Here are some things to consider…
“Firstborn” has nothing to do with physical appearance. In terms of covenantal relevance “firstborn” means “preeminent” i.e., “number one” and as such is not restricted to chronological/physical birth-order.
Jacob was Israel (Gen 32:28).
God declares Israel to be His “firstborn” son (Ex 4:22), i.e., through Israel not Esau (technical firstborn) would the covenant promises be fulfilled.
I can see your point Davo, the terms firstborn and son seem to be used a lot throughout bible, and it makes it a bit difficult to figure out who’s who. Looking at Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: Let all the angels of God worship Him. If this verse is talking about Jesus, then it sounds like He was in the world at a previous time.
He WAS in the world at a previous time. Indeed, He was the firstborn of all creation (Col 1:15). This doesn’t imply that He was created as people and animals have been created, but that He was begotten or generated out of God Himself.
Jesus Himself said, "I have emerged out of the Father, and have come into the universe (John 16:28)
The second-century Christians often wrote that the Father “begat Him before all ages.” Justin Martyr gave the analogy of lighting a small fire from a large one. The large one is in no way diminished by lighting the smaller one from it.
In fact the phrase “begotten before all ages” occurs even in the original Nicene Creed (325 A.D.), and was accepted by the first Trinitarians. However, later Trinitarians changed the wording to “eternally begotten.”
Again, “begotten” is a term that is used in different senses. In Genesis 11, it’s used in the sense of one being physically born. Peter 1:30 says “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. This is said in a spiritual sense. How were they begotten the first time?
From the KJV John 16:28 says " I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.” How can He leave the world again if He was not here before?
Yes, but as I understood the OP was in regard to YHWH being in the form of another man unless I misunderstood. As to whether Jesus was before the creation and throughout the ages, yes, I agree that He was in one form or another. I do not agree that He needed to be in flesh form to “speak”, as the speaking of God is the first of all creation, regardless of one’s view of the form of Deity .As davo posted, His form(being physical or not) is not an issue with being firstborn of all creation(imo).
Jesus’ “again” is a bit like a rhetorical “likewise” or “so it is”… somewhat emphatic; these are not chronological statements. The same is so of Heb 1:6, which verse 5 preceding demonstrates etc…
From the KJV John 16:28 " I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." How can He leave the world again if He was not here before?
I really think He is just sying that He came forth into the world from His Father, and He is leaving the world to return to His Father, “again”, being a statement of the parallel of where He came from, and where He is returning.
As in
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. I leave the world and return to be with My father again.
John 6:32-33 says Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. “For the bread of heaven is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Genesis 1:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
This sounds like God came down from heaven in the beginning to give life to the world.
We know God through Jesus Christ(God in the flesh). He gave Himself as a living example for us, and if we follow in His likeness, we portray His image.
Ephesians 3:9 and to make all people see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.
John 1:3 All things were made through Him (Jesus-God’s Word in the flesh)
Genesis 1:26 Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.
From these verses, my thought is this: If man was created in the image of God in the beginning, and if all things are created through Jesus (through meaning by means or agency of) then it was God in the flesh who taught man in the beginning.
John 1:30 says “This is He whom I said, After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.”
Again, this speaks of God as being a Man before.
No. It doesn’t speak of God being a human being prior to the birth of Christ. Rather it speaks of the man Jesus as having existed before John (not as a man, but as a pre-existent divine Being).
Paidion, This could be true , but I would say that it depends on how one sees Jesus. According to Isaiah 45:21 “And there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.” I see Jesus as God in a different form, not as a separate being. So as in my previous post, when they speak of things being created through Jesus, to me this means God in the flesh. Now John 1:10 for example says, “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” “Him” could mean God the Holy Spirit or “Him” could mean Jesus. If “Him” is referring to Jesus, then I take it to mean God in human form.
The phrase “God the Father” occurs SIXTEEN times in the New Testament.
How many times does the phrase “God the Son” occur? ZERO
How many times does the phrase "God the Spirit occur? ZERO
A reasonable question is…
If the scripture says all things were created by Him and without Him was nothing made that was made…
In what way did He do this?
Was He infused with the Spirit acting in human form, or in angelic form, or Christophany- as an executive administrator with unlimited authority over limitless resources?
Was He actually, as the Deity, performing the actions of creation Himself?
By faith we know the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that unseen things are greater then visible things.
John 1, Heb 1, Col 1- all tell us clearly and unrefutably that God created all things through Jesus Christ- but we have little insight (and perhaps not the capacity to understand the immensity and mystery of it) into exactly “how” this worked between the Father and the Son.
Is the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of God, are they separate, are they the same, are they a unified mind or two minds so completely unified as to be like tea in water- God the water and Christ the tea, the flavor…God the wind and Chrst the aroma, the identity at the detectable level for man, who cannot see God the Almighty Invisible One True God Who Dwells In Unapproachable Light-but the Son of Man, coming down out of heaven, has revealed Him. The radiance of the father’s glory. The icon of YHWH’s divine nature and eternal power.
I hear people making confident assertions all the time about wht they know based on this perspective or that.
Nowhere is Jesus called God the Son yet Thomas called Him His God, but Jesus called the father My God and Your God, yet Jesus created all things, or YHWH did through Jesus, the Logos.
Nowhere is the Holy Spirit called God the Spirit but He is called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, and Jesus says God is spirit, and His worshippers must worship Him in spirit and truth.
Mysteries, enigmas, paradoxical paradigms- oy vey!
Ro 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
What does it mean when Rev. 13:8 says,
?
Or in Jesus’ prayer in John 17:5,
?
Does this not mean that Jesus is eternal with the Father?