The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Did Jesus or the Apostles teach Remedial punishment?

Theology Biblical Theology
#21

First off, and trying to be more respectful here, but I fear that Aaron is listening to the wise and learned from whom God has hidden his revelation (especially since he tried to use the reference to one-up somebody). These people think they know but don’t because they refuse to go to the heart of the situation.

The simplest illustration I can use to define eternal punishment is someone putting their hand in front of an ant. No matter what it does it can’t penetrate past it. The same with our Almighty loving Father. He puts a hand of grace down to prevent us from fully losing ourselves in foolishness. To those who try to run on headfirst into it anyway, we get burned and experience His presence like holy fire.

Hell is a loving grace to us. The worst is not the flames of burning sulfur but the numb, dull sickening pain of continual bleeding and despair which must ever be ours apart from the living experience of He who calls us into being.

That’s the true meaning of remedial punishment. Thank our glorious God for snatching us where we fall, no matter how sharp the pain of rescue may be!

#22

That is very philosophical, Justin, but unfortunately that is not how scripture is interpreted. Question:
How do you interpret Matt 25:46 “All these shall go away into Everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal.”

#23

Just a wild guess here, but I’m thinking you’ve been reading my posts. :wink:

I interpret it as follows: the source of punishment, God, will never end. God will not change; you must change. If you are wicked, His love will be like torturous fire to you. But if you are righteous, His love will be soothing and rewarding to you. But either way, God’s love is eternal and never-changing. But you will change once the pain of being wicked becomes too great for you to bear.

#24

So, Justin interprets Matt 25:46 " "All these shall go away into Everlasting remedial punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal. Do you not see the fallacy in this, Justin?

#25

Christ is the Only Everlasting One. Do you believe this? I imagine you do.

Okay, so. Anything everlasting must have its source in Him, correct? And anything that comes from Him must be of one nature, for the Lord our God is one (united in essence, not schizophrenic or fragmented). Thus, the “punishment,” and “life,” are of the same exact essence.

Obviously you agree that it is God who administers both. And why? Because some are “wicked,” or “wrong,” and others are “righteous,” or “purified.” But if God is no respecter of persons, then the determining factor in whether someone gets “punishment,” or life," must be relative to that person and not to God, because he doesn’t pick favorites. Correct?

I hope you’re with me so far. So, since God administers both without favoritism, and both are of an everlasting nature, and thus must be of His own nature since only He is everlasting… I hope you’re following this closely… what the people experience, whether life or punishment, is God Himself, the only One who endures the ages.

And since nothing or no one endures but Him, the punishment and life have no existence of their own. Thus our experience of punishment or life is relative to our experience of Him. Do you understand what I’m saying here? We will be helplessly caught up in an experience with Him… and whether or not that is life or punishment for us is determined by nothing else than our nature, since it’s relative to ourselves what we experience and not to God who is NO respecter of persons.

Surely you can see how the last thing that a person with a huge guilty conscience would want to come into contact with is the Judge of all things? Yet that’s just what they will get… and they will be judged, for their own benefit. True judgment is not vindictive as you stated, but a truthful and matter-of-fact statement of how things are.

Facing the pain of who one truly is, when one has been trying to avoid that very reality for a lifetime, perhaps even centuries (who knows how long until the judgment?), using and manipulating others in order to avoid having to face the pitiful appearance of their own hardened and grotesque yet weakened and malnourished self is the worst pain one can ever imagine. We wanted to be gods of our own, just as the snake said, and it hurts that we can’t be… facing the ultimate Judge will reveal that deep wounded sense of hurt inside of us and create the most distinct type of torture there is.

“Even the damned must at times become aware of what they are, and then surely a terrible though momentary hush must fall upon the forsaken regions.”
~George MacDonald

#26

Again, nice philosophical approach but we both know scripture is not interpreted that way. The difference here, Justin, is how you interpret the word punish. In the context of this verse you cannot interpret kolasis to mean remedial without buthchering the verse. You want us to believe that the verse reads like this "All these shall go away into Everlasting remedial punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal. Its amazing how you don’t see the complete fallacy in this. :smiley:

This is how the verse was attended to be read "All these shall go away into Everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal. Everlasting meaning time without end. You see, Jesus is prophesying about the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. Matthew 25:32-46 in context is describing the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. “Final” meaning your destiny is sealed and revealed in the books and if your not found in the book of life you are sentenced to everlasting punishment in the lake of fire, the second death. There is not a re-trial to see if the lake of fire corrected you. Your destiny is a done deal.

#27

No, we don’t. Or I know better, at least. I realize that the Spirit is necessary to help us interpret writings he inspired.

I don’t. It’s amazing how you don’t see that the language used is so ancient that the meaning of the words is not obvious at first glance, especially such a huge concept as eternity. :ugeek:

Everlasting doesn’t mean that. Everlasting refers to something that is timeless, to which time does not wear out. I think you have defined it too prematurely. Do some more study, Aaron.

The lake of fire will not fail to correct anyone. Ever tried to keep sulfur from doing its job?

#28

When God disciplines the Christian, is it remedial or vindictive? What do you say, Aaron?

Sonia

#29

Do you accept Spiros as infallable? I do not. And it’s easy enough to point to other Greek scholars that disagree with Spiros.

But there really is no need, because he uses circular reasoning in his notes concerning Mt.25.46. He notes correctly that in Classical Greek Kolasis refers to Remedial Punishment, whereas Timoria refers to vindictive punishment. He then says that though this is the case in Classical Greek, it is not so when used in the NT, and he bases this upon Mt.25.46 “assuming” that it speaks of vindictive punishment and not remedial punishment; but he offers no support for his conclusiongs, and instead reveals that such is based on assumptions.

Mt.25.46 warns of “aionian kolasis”. As you know, or should know, “aionian” does not mean “endless”, but references that which belongs to eternity, the realm beyond site and time. If you haven’t read articles by Greek scholars that affirm such, I’ll gladly post some for you. “Aionian” is actually believed to have been coined by Plato to reference the spiritual realm as opposed to the physical realm.

So “aionian kolasis” refers to Remdial Punishment from/in the spiritual eternal realm. Frankly, if Matthew had intended to communicate Endless Vindictive Torture he’d have used Timoria instead of Kolasis. However Matthew used Kolasis instead of Timoria because he intended to communicate Remedial Punishment.

Of course, Matthew also transliterated Gehenna, instead of translating it as Tartaroo, because Matthew recognized that Tartaroo which connotes endless torture does not accurately convey the primary meaning of Gehenna which is Remedial Punishment. Punishment that proceeds from God is founded in His love and forgiveness, and is meant for our good - Remedial Punishment.

If the writers of the NT believed that Conscious Endless Torture was a real threat, they would have used Tartaroo to speak of it because that is what Tartaroo meant to the Greek. But they were careful to not use Tartaroo to speak of punishment in the afterlife. And Matthew specifically used Kolasis to speak of punishment in the afterlife, and did not use Timoria. Punishment in the afterlife is not vindictive, but is remedial!

Also, I’ve listed several scriptures that speak of the salvation of all humanity because of the universal nature of the Atonement. Please review them and explain why you believe they do not contradict your faith in damnation for others. For example, Rom.5.18. The sin of Adam got us all into this mess with sin and death, but the sacrifice of Christ gets us all out of it and gets us all into justification (just as if we’d never sinned) and life!

#30

It’s irrelevant … The way God disciplines his children has nothing to do with the context of Matt 25:32-46…(Jesus prophesying the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15). If you want to know how God disciplines his children read Hebrews 12:5-8. The problem with UR’s is that they want to add on to the FINAL judgment in Rev 20:11-15. They don’t want to accept the gavel coming down of the revealing of every man’s sealed destiny. :smiley:

#31

Sherman, when you understand the context of Matt 25:32-46…Jesus is prophesying the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15.The problem with UR’s is that they want to add on to the FINAL judgment in Rev 20:11-15. They don’t want to accept the gavel coming down of the revealing of every man’s sealed destiny. :smiley:

#32

Aionios; eternal, belonging to the aion, time in its duration, that is constant, abiding,eternal. Used when referring to eternal life, the life which is God’s and hense not affected by the limitations of time. having neither beginning nor end. :smiley:

#33

Aaron, in case you’re interested. Here’s an article by William Barclay on “aionios” from his book “New Testament Words”

AIONIOS - from William Barclay’s New Testament Words

We do well to search out the true meaning of the word aionios, for in the NT this is the word which is usually translated eternal or everlasting, and it is applied to the eternal life and the eternal glory, which are the Christian’s highest reward, and to the eternal judgment and the eternal punishment, which must be the Christian’s greatest dread.

Even in classical and in secular Greek aionios is a strange word, with a sense of mystery in it. Itself it is an adjective formed from the noun aion. In classical Greek this word aion has three main meanings.

(i) It means a life-time. Herodotus can speak of ending our aion (Herodotus, 1.32); Aeschylus, of depriving a man of his aion (Aeschylus, Prometheus 862); and Euripides of breathing away one’s aion (Euripides, fragment 801).

(ii) Then it comes to mean an age, a generation, or an epoch. So the Greeks could speak of this present aion, and of the aion which is to come, this present age and the age which is to come.

(iii) But then the word comes to mean a very long space of time. The prepositional phrase ap’aionos means from of old; and di’aionos means perpetually and for ever. It is just here that the first mystery begins to enter in. In the papyri we read how at a public meeting the crowd shout `The Emperor eis ton aiona, The Emperor for ever.’

The adjective **aionios **becomes in **Hellenistic Greek **times the standing adjective to describe the Emperor’s power. The royal power of Rome is a power which is to last for ever. And so, as Milligan well puts it, the word aionios comes to describe 'a state wherein the horizon is not in view’. Aionios becomes the word of far distances, the word of eternities, the word which transcends time.

But it was Plato who took this word aionios – he may even have coined it – and gave it its special mysterious meaning. To put it briefly, for Plato aionios is the word of eternity in contrast with time. Plato uses it, as it has been said, ‘to denote that which has neither beginning nor end, and that is subject to neither change nor decay, that which is above time, but of which time is a moving image’.

Plato does not mean by this word simply indefinite continuance – this is a point to which we must later return – but that which is above and beyond time. There are three significant instances of the word in Plato.

In the second book of the Republic (363d) Plato is talking of the poets’ pictures of heaven. He talks of the rewards Musaeus and Eumolpus offer the just men: ‘They take them down into the world below, where they have the saints lying on couches at a feast, everlastingly drunk, with garlands on their heads; their idea seems to be that an immortality of drunkenness (aionios methe) is the highest meed of virtue.’

• In The Laws he speaks of the soul and the body being indestructible, but not eternal (904a). There is a difference between simple existence for ever and eternity, for eternity is the possession of gods, not of men.
The most significant of all the Platonic passages is in the Timaeus 37d. There he speaks about the Creator and the universe which he has created, ‘the created glory of the eternal gods’ – The Creator was glad when he saw his universe, and he wished to make it as nearly like the eternal universe as it could be. But ‘to attach eternity to the created was impossible.’ So he made time as a moving image of eternity.

• The essential point in this picture is that eternity is always the same and always indivisible; in it there is no being created and no becoming; there is no such thing as being older and younger in eternity; there is no past, present or future.

• There is no was or will be but only an eternal is.
Obviously we cannot have that state in a created world; but none the less the created world is, within its limits, the image of eternity.

Here then is the salient fact.

• The essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing other than the life of God.
We must now turn to the use of the word aionios in the NT itself. By far its most important usage there is in connection with eternal life. But that usage is so important that we must retain it for separate treatment. And we must first take a sweeping view of all its usages.

As we do so we must remember that aionios is distinctively the word of eternity, and that it can properly describe only that which essentially belongs to and befits God. (that which belongs to and comes from God.)

It is used of the great blessings of the Christian life, blessings which have been brought by Jesus Christ.

It is used of the eternal covenant of which Christ is the mediator (Heb. 13.20). A covenant means a relationship with God, and through Jesus Christ men enter into a relationship with God which is as eternal as God himself.

It is used of the eternal habitations into which the Christian shall enter (Luke 16.9; II Cor. 5.1.). The ultimate destiny of the Christian is a life which is none other than the life of God himself.

It is used of the eternal redemption and the eternal inheritance into which the Christian enters through Jesus Christ (Heb. 9.15). The safety, the liberty, the release which Christ wrought for men is as lasting as God himself.

It is used of the glory into which the faithful Christian will enter (I Peter 5.10; II Cor. 4.17; II Tim. 2.10). There awaits God’s faithful man God’s own glory.

So it is used in connection with the words hope and salvation (Titus 3.7; II Tim. 2.10). There is nothing fleeting, impermanent, destructible about the Christian hope and salvation; even another world could not change or alter them; they are as unchangeable as God himself.

It is used of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ (II Peter 1.11). Jesus Christ is not surpassable; he is not a stage on the way; his revelation, his value is the revelation and the value of God himself.

It is used of the Gospel (Rev. 14.6). The Gospel is not merely one of many revelations; it is not merely a stage on the way of revelation; it is eternity entered into time.

But while aionios is used to describe the greatest blessings of the Christian life, it is also used to describe the greatest threats of the Christian life.

It is used to describe the fire of punishment (Matt. 18.8; 25.41; Jude 7). It is used to describe punishment itself (Matt. 25.46). It is used to describe judgment (Heb. 6.2). It is used to describe destruction (II Thess. 1.9). It is used to describe the sin which finally separates man from God (Mark 3.29).

It is in these passages that we need to be especially careful in our interpretation of the word. Simply to take is as meaning lasting for ever is not enough. In all these passages we must remember the essential meaning of aionios.

• Aionios is the word of eternity as opposed to and contrasted with time. It is the word of deity as opposed to and contrasted with humanity. It is the word which can only really be applied to God. If we remember that, we are left with one tremendous truth – both the blessings which the faithful shall inherit and the punishment which the unfaithful shall receive are such as befits God to give and to inflict. Beyond that we cannot go.

• Simply to take the word aionios, when it refers to blessings and punishment, to mean lasting far ever is to oversimplify, and indeed to misunderstand, the word altogether. It means far more than that.
It means that that which the faithful will receive and that which the unfaithful will suffer is that which it befits God’s nature and character to bestow and to inflict – and beyond that we who are men cannot go, except to remember that that nature and character are holy love.

We must now turn to the greatest of all uses of the word aionios in the NT, its use in connection with the phrase eternal life.

• We must begin by reminding ourselves of the fact which we have so often stressed, that the word aionios is the word of eternity in contrast with time, of deity in contrast with humanity, and that therefore eternal life is nothing less than the life of God himself.

(i) The promise of eternal life is the promise that it is open to the Christian to share nothing less than the power and the peace of God himself. Eternal life is the promise of God (Titus 1.2; I John 2.25). God has promised us a share in his own blessedness, and God cannot break a promise.

(ii) But the NT goes further than that – eternal life is not only the promise of God; eternal life is the gift of God (Rom. 6.23; I John 5.11). As we shall see, eternal life is not without its conditions; but the fact remains that eternal life is something which God out of his mercy and grace gives to man. It is something which we could neither earn nor deserve; it is the free gift of God to men.

(iii) Eternal life is bound up with Jesus Christ. Christ is the living water which is the elixir of eternal life (John 4.14). He is the food which brings to men eternal life (John 6.27, 54). His words are the words of eternal life (John 6.68). He himself not only brings (John 17.2, 3) but is eternal life (I John 5.20).

• If we wish to put this very simply, we may say that through Jesus there is possible a relationship, an intimacy, a unity with God which are possible in no other way. Through what he is and does men may enter into the very life of God himself.

(iv) This eternal life comes through what the NT calls belief in Jesus Christ (John 3.15, 16, 36; 5.24; 6.40, 47; I John 5.13; 1 Tim. 1.16). What does this belief mean? Clearly it is not simply intellectual belief. Belief in Jesus means that we believe absolutely and implicitly that what Jesus says about God is true… that life is in the hands of the love of God. But further, this belief means believing that Jesus is who he claims to be… We believe that God is Father and that God is love, because we believe that Jesus, being the Son of God, has told us the truth about God … Eternal life is nothing else than the life of God himself…

• We shall never enter into the full ideas of eternal life until we rid ourselves of the almost instinctive assumption that eternal life means primarily life which goes on for ever.

Long ago the Greeks saw that such a life would be by no means necessarily a blessing. They told the story of Aurora, the goddess of dawn, who fell in love with Tithonus, the mortal youth. Zeus offered her any gift she might choose for her mortal lover. She asked that Tithonus might never die; but she forgot to ask that he might remain for ever young. So Tithonus lived for ever growing older and older and more and more decrepit, till life became a terrible and intolerable curse.

• Life is only of value when it is nothing less than the life of God – and that is the meaning of eternal life.

#34

Sherman

You mean this William Barclay: Barclay called himself a “liberal evangelical” and denied accepted doctrines like the inerrancy of scripture or even the deity of Jesus Christ. He regularly rejects supernatural explanations of Jesus’ miracles, as summarized in “The Enigmatic William Barclay“, an article in the Christian Courier:

He argued that the Savior did not multiply the loaves and fishes literally; Jesus merely motivated the thronging people to share their food with one another. He opined that Christ did not actually walk upon the Sea of Galilee; it was just that, from the disciples’ vantage point, it appeared that he did—as he walked in the shallow water near the beach. Further, he said, the Lord did not really intend for Peter to cast his fishing hook into the sea in order to obtain a coin from a fish’s mouth; rather, he meant for the apostle to use his fishing skill to raise the funds for the temple tax. So went the Barclay “spin.”

I don’t think I will be taught by anyone who rejects the inerrancy of scripture, the diety of Christ and rejects Jesus’ miracles. Its embarrassing for you to use him as a source. Zodhiates credentials are looking better by the second, huh Sherman? :smiley:

#35

Aaron, it’s not a matter of creditials, it’s a matter of facts. In fact, a non-Christian can study languages and determine the meaning of words as used in those languages.

It’s really a relatively simple study, just look at how aionios is used in scripture. One of the most telling is when it says that Sodom was destroyed by “aionios” fire. Of course this does not mean “endless fire” (it actually lasted only briefly), but fire that came from God. Scripture also speaks of “aionios” judgment which does not mean judgment that lasts forever, but jugment that comes from God. “aionios life” is life from God.

“aionios” is simply of means of referencing God as the source from which it comes. Many propose transliterating it as “aionian” instead of translating it with one word, because the English language does not have a word that means what “aionios” means. The closest word is likely “eternal” to reference the Eternal One. It is a word related to “quality” and does not specifically relate to “quatity”.

I’m curios, if Conscious Endless Torture (Damnation for others) is a reality, then why do you think that the writers of the NT did not use the word Tartaroo in regards to people, for Tartaroo clearly speaks of Conscious Unending Torture?

Also, you haven’t even addressed Rom.5.18. I’d really like to hear your take on that verse, that chapter; for it clearly says that just as Adam’s sin gets us all into this mess with sin and death, the sacrifice of Christ gets us all out of it and into justification (just as if we’d never sinned) and Life.

#36

So, if I’m reading that study from Barclay correctly, aionios refers to the spiritual timeless realm rather than indefinite or endless time. By this understanding, it could be said that aionios kolasis could even possibly occur entirely (though not necessarily) within our time in this life, because aionios refers to a quality, rather than a quantity.

And this makes sense, because time occurs within, or in conjunction with “eternity”; as eternity (according to the modern understanding of the word) has no beginning or end, whereas time has both a beginning and an end.

Aionios, then, refers to the quality, or source of the punishment or the life, not the duration.

This, combined with kolasis (vs. timoria) makes a strong case for remedial punishment.

Jonah is a prime example. He endured an aionios punishment that lasted three days of time, which only makes sense if aionios refers to quality (and/ or source) and not duration.

#37

Thank you, perfect explanation.

I just may have to save this to my harddrive for later use.

#38

I should also like to point out that the entire latter part of Matthew 25 is speaking about nations, rather than individuals. ‘Nations’ is the direct object of the predicate in Matt. 25:32a, and signified by the word ‘them’ in Matt. 25:32b in reference to the separation of the sheep and the goats. So even if we grant Aaron’s claim as correct, the entering into eternal life or eternal punishment would only be applicable to nations. In other words, those nations that do unto these their brethren would survive as a nation, while those nations that do not unto these thy brethren would suffer as a nation or cease eternally as a nation. Jesus often condemned whole cities by name. But that says nothing about the individulas within those countries, only that the corporate nationalities/identities would experience that punishment the eternal punishment

This make more sense when we come to Rev. 20 and the gathering of the nations for the final battle as well as the healing of the nations in Rev 22. (One wonders by Rev 22 what nations need healing anyway. Presumably the tree of life ensures there is no more curse. Seems like some kind of remedial healing is at work here, as sin is dealt with in the healing, so the curse disappears).