The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Did Jesus or the Apostles teach Remedial punishment?

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

Everyone

UR hangs its hat upon the lake of fire being an remedial or corrective punishment. Lets look in scripture where the Greek word ‘Kolasis’ in (Matt 25:46; 1John 4:18) and ‘Timoria’ in (Hebrews 10:29; Acts 22:5; 26:11) are used in scripture and see if the context supports “remedial” punishment. There is only one conclusion of how the word is being used in context to the scriptures they are found.

Matthew 25:46 “And these shall go away into aionios punishment: but the righteous into life aionios.”

1 John 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Kolasis from kolazo means to punish; punishment; torment. In Class. Gr. timoria is the vindictive character of the punishment as the predominate thought which satisfies the inflicter’s sense of outraged justice, as defending his own honor or that of the violated law. Kolasis, on thr other hand, conveys the notion of punishment for the correction and bettering of the offender. It does not always, however, have the same meaning in the NT.

For instance, (Matt 25:46) kolasis aionios does not refer to temporary corrective punishment and discipline; rather it has more the meaning of ‘timoria’, punishment, because of the violation of the eternal law of God. It is the punishment with finality with which our Lord threatens the offenders ( Mark 9:43-48). In this sense it does not imply the bettering of one who endures such punishment. In ‘kolasis’ we have the relation of the punishment to the punished while ‘timoria’ the relationship is to the punisher himself. :wink:

Timoria, In class. Gr. the vindictiveness of the punishment is the predominate thought, a punishment satisfying the inflicters sense of outraged justice, as defending his own honor or that of a violated law. From its etymolgy, the guardianship or protection of honor. Contrast kolasis, to torment, which has more the notion of punishment rather than the correction and rehabilitation of the offender. :wink:

I wrote all of that to ask you this. After reading Matt 25:46 and 1John 4:18 in context which of the meanings fit. Kolasis, we have the relation of the punishment to the punished? or Timoria, the relationship is to the punisher himself? The answer is crystal clear to me. :smiley:

Source: Greek Lexical Aids to the NT, Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D.

God bless,
Aaron

#2

Aaron, I found this 73 page pdf on the analysis of certain words in the bible. Interesting. You might enjoy it - the guy obviously knows his Greek!

savior-of-all.com/An%20Analy … 0Words.pdf

#3

So does Spiros Zodhiates…His last name should give it away. He is a Greek and one of the most respected Greek scholars of this century. :smiley:

#4

No, UR hangs its hat on the promises in scripture of salvation of all humanity. Rom.5.18, Paul says that just like the sin of Adam gets us all into this mess with sin and death, the sacrifice of Christ gets us all out of it and into justification (just as if I’d never sinned) and life. And of course, Jesus said that if He was crucified He’d draw all humanity to himself. And of course, Paul goes on to say that God is the Savior of all humanity, especially we who believe! These promises are precious to me and I trust in God, have faith in God to fulfill His word.

First note that these scriptures do not mention the “Lake of Fire” that you initially mentioned. They are not even in the same book of the Bible.

So you’re saying that Matthew didn’t really mean “kolasis”, but what he meant was “timoria”. Aaron, I’m really beginning to question your ability to just read scripture for what it says, without reading into it what you want it to mean. Matthew used “kolasis” because he intended to. If he’d have meant “timoria”, he’d have used that. Furthermore, scripture repeatedly affirms the mercy of God, that God is love, love keeps no record of wrongs. The Lord even directs us to forgive our enemies. How much more does the God who loves us, forgive us and keep no record of wrongs against us.

Note that Mark 9:43-48 warns of Gehenna, which to the Jew predominantly spoke of Remedial Punishment. Also note that after warning of the terribleness of the fires of Gehenna, Jesus notes that actually “We shall all be salted by fire”, affirming the concept of Remedial Punishment which brings preservation. We shall all have plenty to repent of (weeping) and regret (gnashing of teeth).

Mt.25:46 easily lines up with the concept of Remedial Punishment, for it is simply a warning of such judgment.

1 Jn.4.18 also speaks of Remedial Punishment, but notes that those who are perfected in love will not fear Remedial Punishment. What other kind of punishment would we even consider expecting from someone who loves us. If God loves all of humanity, and if Jesus died for all of humanity taking upon himself the sins of the world, taking upon himself all punishment there might be of a vindictive nature, what punishment is left is only remedial - the punishment of a loving Father.

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is related to punishment (though it be remedial). But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Just like children are fearful of their loving father, why, because they have not been perfected in love and are still acting selfishly. But children who are mature in love, boldly approach their father any time they desire to do so. This whole passage is about LOVE. How you read into it “vindictiveness” alludes me.

We love Him because He first loved us, just like a child loves his parents who loved him even before he was born, and love him regardless of what he does, and would gladly give their lives for him. And God loves us more than we can ever love our own children.

My chldren need never fear vindictive punishment from me, but when they are walking selfishly they do fear the Remedial Punishment I’ve promised them if they continue in such.

#5

Also Aaron37, I just wanted to further point out the following.

It seems that either you or Spiros is “assuming” that “aionioan kolasis” in Mt.25:46 speaks of Hell and thus “kolasis” in this case cannot have its normal meaning of “remedial punishment”. This is eisegesis, not exegesis. If kolasis speaks of remedial punishment in Classical Greek, and Timoria speaks of Vindictive punishment, and Matthew uses “Kolasis”, then we should conclude that he means remedial punishment, unless otherwise specifically stated. Which he doesn’t state.

#6

Sherman, who are you to correct one of the most respected Greek scholars in the world? How do you interpret Matt 25:46? Everlasting Remedial punishment? Thats nonsense! So, Sherman interprets Matt 25:46 "All these shall go away into Eternal remedial punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. :laughing: C’mon Sherman, can you see the fallacy in this? :unamused:

#7

Well, the Greeks (Eastern Orthodox) still teach UR and it has never been considered a heresy in all their long history. “God’s love is in the fire.” …in other words, Remedial and Corrective. Credentials? There ya go!

God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future. (Martin Luther’s letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg, 1522.)

#8

Ran, who are you to correct one of the most respected Greek scholars in the world? How do you interpret Matt 25:46? Everlasting Remedial punishment? Thats nonsense! So, Ran interprets Matt 25:46 "All these shall go away into Eternal remedial punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal. C’mon Ran, can you see the fallacy in this?

#9

More comedy from Aaron37. This is like someone holding up a plastic sword and swinging it around shouting in a loud theatrical voice, “Hey everyone, better watch out for the big DANGEROUS sword I’m swinging!” :laughing:

Please don’t tell me he’s serious, I think my head just may explode. From laughter. I guess he’s just desperate at this point.

As for aionios, has he really not heard of the interpretation of it being something of God’s eternal nature? Methinks it’s about time he’s educated on this.

#10

Hey Ran, check out Zodhiates credentials.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiros_Zodhiates

#11

Check out the dude’s credentials… on Wikipedia? That’s like researching a scholarly work using the back of a cereal box.

#12

I did. A ‘scholar’ with a radio show going out to conservative Christian listeners. I think he might have been swayed by who was paying the bills and what they wanted to hear.

I don’t see where he was invited by any translation committee for any bible. So as far as him being one the ‘most respected Greek scholars of this century’ goes - I guess that would depend on who you ask.

#13

:laughing: Yea, thats all he did. Don’t you think a Greek born scholar would be able to interpret his own language, Ran ? .Anywho… So, you translate Matt 25:46 “All these shall go away into Eternal remedial punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal.” C’mon Ran, can you see the fallacy in this? :mrgreen:

#14

First off, Greeks can’t understand ancient Greek much better than we can understand Welsh. (I’ll bet Jeff can’t understand ancient Welsh - if there is such a thing) Anyway…

I can’t translate your verse in question - I don’t pretend to know ancient Greek or Aramaic. I don’t even know which scholar to trust - but I DO know that Christ is the Savior of all men. Just as you seem to know that He is NOT.

I took one class in college on the history of the English language - fascinating subject - but I learned how fluid and dynamic language is for a culture, and changes rapidly with invasions and conquests, and the biggie: Commerce! Wanna trade with Rome? - learn Latin!

Aaron, I just read your post below. You can put your faith on whomever you wish. As I have said before, you are grist for the religious mill. Where will the wind blow you next? I worry about you - I don’t think you can maintain your ‘born-again’ superiority in all things without paying for it with non-coherency and marginalization.

#15

Ran did you not read this in Zodhiates credentials : He was also responsible for introducing the Modern Greek pronunciation of Classical and Koine Greek into U.S. colleges and universities through A Guide to Modern Greek Pronunciation and his tape recordings of the entire Koine New Testament (Nestle’s text) in Modern Greek pronunciation. He recorded with Modern Greek pronunciation special courses on New Testament Greek for those who wish to learn it on their own or in classrooms, using texts such as J. Gresham Machen’s New Testament Greek for Beginners, Summers’, Davis’, and Hadjiantoniou’s grammars. :smiley:

Open mouth and insert foot… a common theme for you, Ran. :laughing: still love ya, brother. Again, do you translate Matt 25:46 “All these shall go away into Eternal remedial punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal.” C’mon Ran, can you see the fallacy in this? :mrgreen: or All these shall go away into Everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal. :wink:

#16

Ran, you’re ‘Nervous as a cat with a long tail in a room with rocking chairs’ ? :laughing:

Btw, Did Martin Luther write your signature before or after drinking a half barrel of beer? Did he not like his beer or wine? :laughing: just kiddin, Ran…but really before or after? :smiley:

#17

lol - Let me put it this way: I’ll take a buzzed German theologian over a tea-sipping Muslim any day of the week! En Vino Veritas. Allah hates beer. Need I say more?

#18

:laughing: Love ya, brother…That UR rug is getting pulled out from under your feet, brother…and your getting nervous…face it, Ran, if I was not on this discussion board giving you truth…you would not even be here…( sleepy hollow, :laughing: ) let that sink in a little bit before you respond. :smiley:

#19

Aaron, God has sent me here to convert you to UR to keep you from becoming a complete numnut for the rest of your life. I always complete my missions. You WILL be either freed or doomed depending on your resistance - which resistance is futile in either case. You can thank me at the resurrection - but, hey, don’t thank me. Thank Him. I’m just an Ambassador.

You can run, Aaron, but you can’t hide. I know you love God - I have never doubted your motivation. Let your heart be malleable. Truly malleable. Pray for that and see what happens. The epiphany will come and love is always on the other end.

#20

:smiley: were getting off topic, back to one of the many scriptures that refute UR. Matt 25:46 " All these shall go away into Everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life Eternal. Crystal clear to me. :unamused: