The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Displeasure with the Ends

Practices Christian Living
#1

In my Christian experience as of late, I’ve had the displeasure of conversing with two individuals who express two extremes.

One I will call “Mr. Nineveh” is a hyper-dispensationalist whom to summarise believes this; “If you don’t follow Paul, you aren’t following Christ.” Now, this person does not believe that a Gentile should have any part of things such as the Hebrew feasts, for example; We’re not allowed to celebrate Passover if we are “Gentiles”, the feast days aren’t for the Gentiles to take part of, for the Gentiles are under a different dispensation. His main beef against me it seemed was more about the length of my hair (I have long hair) and how I was sinning against God in nigh fullest rebellion for not having short hair as “God commanded”, and the worst of it was in my belief that women are allowed to have “pulpit ministries” in the service of the Kingdom; all of his beefs of which pertained to Paul’s writings and my “failure to rightly divide the word of God and follow Paul’s Gospel/writings” (as if Paul’s writings where somehow this new book of Leviticus for the Gentiles). Of course, my greatest displeasure with him was (aside from his attitude which I just mentioned) was that he expressed the belief that the only books of the Bible with relevance to the “Gentile” church are the books of Romans through Philemon. Basically, I felt he was worshiping Paul rather than Christ.

The other I will call “Mr. Damascus” is a Messianic Judaist, whom to summarise his brand of it basically believes; “If you don’t follow Moses you aren’t following Christ.” Basically, that Christians are still under The Law, and that the only reason Christ died on the cross was so the “wild heathen branches” could be grafted onto the olive tree and take part in Judaism, and keeping The Law. According to him, if you celebrate Easter or Christmas you are “celebrating pagan holidays” (insert your typical Christmas is of the Devil argument here) and to please God you must keep the Torah. His main beef with me seems to be that I don’t “delight in keeping The Law” and therefore Jesus will spit me out for being lukewarm.

Now, for myself I celebrate both Passover (my favourite holiday), and Easter, and would celebrate Hannukah as well as Christmas if I could; I love the Jewish Feast days and I also love the “pagan” holidays (And indeed I am fully aware of their pagan roots, but I see little reason in not celebrating what has been Christianised to the service of God’s good will) — But God forbid that I should be relegated to doing things the “Gentile/Paul’s way” or the “Jewish/Mosaic way” either.

The thing is, I can’t seem to express my displeasure at the root similarity that both share; “This is the One True Way - do it or you hate God and aren’t following him like a good little boy”, and legalism(?).

For Mr. Nineveh I had little care of his argument, there is one Gospel, and the length of my hair should not determine how much I love God. I am no newborn lamb in the faith, or else I would not be here. Yet I still dislike the attitude of his legalism the same as I dislike Mr. Damascus’ legalism.

Yet on to Mr. Damascus, it is his theology that I dislike the most and with him I have the most difficulty - not only with the legalistic insistence that the only proper way is the Jewish way, and his insistence that we must keep the Torah to the exclusion of anything even resembling Easter-Christmas typical Christianity, but I especially take displeasure with his belief that Jesus is going to rebuild the physical temple (the third temple) and that he will reinstate the Temple practices, and that we will worship God after the Old Testament fashion with Him as the high-priest. Such ideas appall me.

It may be my “Greek mind” as he puts it. But I can’t help but feel that I prefer the Greek mind over the Jewish mind, if that be the case, and all in all I can’t stomach the idea that the Jews are superior to the Gentiles (as if they have a corner market, or the “best and final say” in the matters of God merely because they are “the Jews” or Jew related), all around it feels like a form of Israeli Superiority Nationalism passing itself off as faith in Christ. I love the Jews, and the Jewish expressions of faith (especially the yummy feasts) but I dislike what I feel here, but can’t rightly express.

I suppose in summary it feels like a slap to the face statement that “The Jews are best, ignore the rest” when I see such insistence on feast days, and Torah keeping. For Mr. Nineveh, the same I guess could be applied when he puts Paul in the throne of Christ, which I equally despise.

But what I want to know is; what exactly is it that I am so thoroughly displeased with (concerning both of them)? What am I fighting? Why? And what advice, or wisdom might you share with me that would help bolster my spiritual-castle’s position on the battlefield. I may not be a “Mary had a little lamb” Christian - but I do know when I have a blind spot, and need help in strengthening that spot. I’ve put this question up before elsewhere, but I am not satisfied in my spirit.

So, help and discussion is certainly appreciated. :slight_smile:

#2

Awkward, to say the least!

As I was reading, a couple of passages came to mind:

For Mr. Damascus, perhaps Matthew 15 (or Mark 7). Since Jesus was a Jew, perhaps him saying that it’s not about strict observance to “the Law” (but rather about the heart attitude) would help?

For Mr. Nineveh, perhaps Galatians 3? Perhaps having Paul saying that it is not the strict following of rules which declares us righteous (but rather the fact that we have believed what we have heard) wouold help? He also says that there is “neither Jew nor Greek”… so it doesn’t really matter what festivals you partake in - we’re all in it together!

I advocate that it’s about the heart attitude. When our focus becomes following a set of rules (whether Old Testament, New Testament or just something good) then there is a problem. Our focus should be Jesus. Let him change us. As long as we’re striving to do what’s good and right, God is big enough to accept that we make mistakes and He doesn’t condemn us for it. He knows some things take time. :wink:

#3

I too agree here. Which is probably the root of my displeasure. They’re setting up systems and proclaiming it to be the sweet fruit of the Tree of Life, problem is - I tasted that fruit of Life (however small that bite may have been) and their fruit tastes more like what the Serpent offered than the spiritual fruit of Christ.

#4

Why don’t you just become a “Mr. James” and tell the others folks to bug off?

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:8-26

#5

Lol! I like this answer.

#6

Lefein,

Are you sure you haven’t just time-travelled back to 1st century Corinth? :smiley:

#7

Leifin,

I believe that the problem you are addressing is that many people believe that their way is the only way. It’s the same attitude the disciples had when they saw a man who was not part of their group ministering to others in the name of Jesus. They asked Jesus if they should rebuke the man, but Jesus basically replied, Leave him alone and go on with your buisness. We need to have room for personal conviction and personal calling. Ultimately we are each individually responsible before God to God, and we each need to be firmly convinced in our own minds as to how we should individually live and what we should individually believe. God is so vast in creation, so many different types of trees, and each tree, even each leaf being different from the others, why would we think that God wants us all to live the same way, to worship exactly the same way, to sing the same songs, etc.?

I believe that God has inspired a great diversity in creation and in the body of Christ; and that when we try to get others to be like us, to believe like us, to do things like we do things, we’re in some ways worshipping ourselves and not worshipping God! And when we put ourselves in the position of judging others, we are certainly thinking of ourselves a little, well, a lot too highly!

Let’s be fully convinced in our hearts and minds concerning how we should individually live, and let’s walk in humility and grace towards others!

#8

Lefein, I’ve recently been talking with someone on FB that is much like the second person you describe. I keep wanting to emphasize that love is what matters. And he, as well as some of his friends, want to insist love is to follow the whole law and we should not change, redefine, etc. anything. Sure seems like Jesus came along and made things much simpler by stating that it can be summed up in loving God and others. I’m sure to the Pharisees Jesus summary left out the details and was, for understandable reasons, in their minds a failure to keep it all by not taking the time to list the details. It’s ironic because these people I’ve been talking to clearly don’t identify with the Pharisees, think they assumed wrong things, etc. but their mentality is so similar. They start to squirm whenever I talk about love being what matters and all I’m doing is quoting Jesus! There sure are so many people with so many different ideas. I like the way Jesus sums it all up for us.I suppose it’s not that simple, tho, is it?!

#9

Lol, I had wondered at the time something similar. Arguing with the man made me sympathise with Jesus’ rebukes and whippery in the temple.

It took a bit of what I had in patience not to yell out; “You son of a snake! Get the tablets off your back and put your heart in focus!”

This post makes alot of sense. Especially the idea that we are individually accountable to God, before God. I think there is a lot to be said there, especially under the Universalist paradigm. Perhaps, “God does the saving, what we do is the living”?

Yeah, they don’t want to call themselves Pharisees, but they’re very keen on acting like them. Unfortunately in my case I had to deal with someone who was like; “If it isn’t Jewish, it isn’t Godly” and as a person who enjoys his Easter and Christmas…I wasn’t fond of the (what came to be direct, not just implied) judgement that I was going straight to Hell for associating with “The Lawless One” for not keeping the Hebrew Feast days and celebrating Pagan holidays…

Yet, this particular man simply hated it when ever I’d point out a certain Law that said in tantamount; “Tear down your house if it has mold”. His excuse for not keeping it? “He doesn’t live in Canaan.” Yeah, that’s definitely a Pharisee. Twist The Law to suit yourself, but put The Law on others…