The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Do Phil 2:10-11 and Col 1:20 really support UR?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#61

What a copout. Sonia, you are kidding, right? Who is doing injustice to Eph 1:10? It doesn’t matter if you don’t have evidence of people exiting the lake of fire? Wow, that sums it up right there. I’m astonished at your comments…simply amazing

#62

:laughing: No, I’m not kidding. Argument with you has proved futile. And you prove it again with this post. I said we see the people who were thrown into the LOF entering the New Jerusalem, and you don’t care. You insist that you won’t give any credence to UR unless there’s a verse specifically and directly stating that people are exiting the lake of fire. There is no such verse. Therefore there is no point in further discussion with you.

The only reason I posted in the first place was that I thought YOU were saying that WE don’t use Eph 1:10 to support our case, and that is most definitely not the case.

Sorry.

Sonia

#63

What we see is what we want to see. Rev 14:9-11 seals their fate

#64

so if they get the mark, they drink a finite but large amount of God’s wrath (the size of a large cup, it seems), and then the smoke rises to the age, and they are refined for a day and a night.
you’re right…that’s pretty sealed. once they’re finished with that, where do they go?

#65

Are the people in Rev 16:9 repenting after being refined?

#66

absolutely.
chapter 22:3 there is no longer any curse.
the sin must be gone, the wages of sin must be paid, the curse of the law overturned, or else this verse is contradicted.
therefore they must have repented and they must have come into full communion with their Father and ours.
they have eaten the fruit that was for their healing, and have walked along the river of life to worship with us.
chapter 14 also does not put a time limit on when the robes need to be washed, and the invitation of the Bride and the Lamb (to whom if not to sinners? the Bride is hardly going to invite herself) are not revoked or rescinded at any point.

#67

Revival,

You seem to take a fair bit of pleasure in hammering your view that many if not most people will end up in horrible eternal torment. I don’t know if you do or not but it just seems that way from your posts.

I’m wondering do have any close friends, family members, neighbors, etc. that you expect will end up in the place you obsessively preach about?

If yes do you send as much time trying to save them from the future you are so sure awaits them as you do posting the same stuff over and over on this board?

If no then why do you think mostly everyone else is going and knows many people that are going to hell except for you?

I’ve had many discussion with people like you that vehemently espouse ECT but then seem to have no compassion or sense of urgency towards the people they think will end up in the most horrifying place ever - even their own kin or close friends.

I don’t know how they reconcile that.

#68

Aaron,

I argued Col. 1’s language IN CONTEXT explicitly specifies that ALL “created” folk are reconciled. You offer two replies:

(1) You just reassert that Paul’s espistles are writtento churches, so that they can only describe those already believers. That seems illogical, but the point is that just reasserting your conclusion is no answer at all. I presented precisely the evidence that the text itself shows that it must refer here to a wider group. So, you just offer nothing that answers that.

(2) You jump to Rev. 20 and claim it is identical to Eph. and Col. But that ignores my challenge because A. you’ve just added another passage whose meaning we also disagree on (thus just requiring another thread). B. I see no reason anyway to assume that these passages are so identical that regardless of their wording they cannot tell us anything different.

In sum, you again completely avoid addressing the data of the text at issue that I presented. You can offer 100 additional passages for why you deny a universal hope, and of course I could offer 100 positive ones, but if you don’t engage the texts you yourself introduce, responders may come to see no hope of learning anything new in such exchanges about your case.

#69

Okay, Bob, lets assume you are right. That this reconciliation extends to a wider group.( I agree that unbelievers still have a chance to receive this reconciliation while they are alive) This wider group must be all unbelievers who are in hell and eventually in the LOF. Where in scripture do you see this reconciliation being extended beyond the grave after the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15 to the people who are in the LOF to repent and receive it?

#70

I have soooo much compassion for anyone (especially family members and friends) going to such a horrific place than you know. I believe God’s calling on my life is to be a healing Evangelist but still praying and waiting for confirmation on that.

#71
#72

Don’t be sorry, no biggie. I will make it easier for you and your fellow UR’s. Nevermind showing me people exiting the LOF because we both know its not in scripture… but just show me where do you see reconciliation being extended to the people who are in the LOF after Rev 20:11-15 to repent and receive it?

#73

Well I’ll take your word for it that three extra little 'o’s represents a whole lotta compassion.

Finally acknowledging that deep down I didn’t really believe what I’m sorry to admit that I worked to convince others of was a huge turning point for me.

I thought to myself, “If my _____ was going to be hauled off the next day somewhere to be burned repeatedly and mercilessly by some guy with a propane torch then what measures would I immediately take to prevent it?” I figured I’d do much more than just tell them, “Hey you better watch out cause tomorrow is going to be a bad day for you and then run off to the movies or Starbucks or whatever.”

And yet warning them (some repeatedly) and arguing about doctine is really all I did when I supposedly believed that many around me were facing an infinitely worse ECT scenario.

So it was obvious to me that I didn’t really believe ECT was going to be THAT horrible or that the whole ECT scenario was absurd.

I expect most that espouse the ECT view don’t really believe it or haven’t really honestly thought about what they are actually claiming.

#74

Davidbo

ECT is more real than this conversation and more horrific than our finite minds can imagine. Luke 16:19-31. The LOF will be much worse. Anyway, here are my guides to effective evangelism: do these and you will see more people come to salvation.

  1. Conform to the image of Jesus
  2. Live according to righteousness and holiness
  3. Pray for laborers to be sent into the harvest field of the lives of others.
  4. Take authority over devils blinding eyes of the lost
  5. Represent Jesus in all your ways
#75

Hi Aaron,

Bless you, esp. in acknowledging that you do recognize that those not already saved in Col. 1:4,5 could yet have become believers. I never could imagine that you really believed what you had previously asserted. The rest of your logic here also seems sound, that universalism would seem to require that “all created ones” being reconciled in 1:20 really did mean that, implying that it would include whose who would die and receive eschatological judgments like the LoF. So you fairly ask where I see such restoration beyond death and after such judgments toward the end of the Bible.

I think one could perceive hints in the risen Christ preaching the Gospel to the evil dead, the early practice of baptism for the dead, reference to inviting people to Christ after the Lof, I Cor. 15’s promise that after such events God will be everthing to everyone, etc. But I agree it’s never clearly set forth (just as any life beyond death is faint in the O.T.; I could in turn ask you where it’s clearly stated that after death and after judgment people can’t be reconciled?).

My sense is that a universal hope rests instead on the main and clearest themes of Scripture: the nature and purpose of God’s redeeming judgments, the promises that his wrath never continues but his love and pursuit does, and esp. the explicit and repeated language that God is able and will victoriously reconcile, justify, and make all men alive, and live to praise Him. Yes, it’s a bit of conjecture that God must bring that about in the way you and I have agreed should have to happen. So if such a success in what God’s redeeming love seeks is accomplished in a different way, I’d be fine with that.

#76

Hey Bob…correct me if I’m wrong trying to identify your hints:

1 Peter 3:19-20 the risen Christ preaching the Gospel to the evil dead
1 Cor 15:29 the early practice of baptism for the dead,
Rev 22:17 reference to inviting people to Christ after the Lof
1 Cor 15:24-28 I Cor. 15’s promise that after such events God will be everthing to everyone, etc.

Are these correct?

  1. 1 Peter 3:19-20… There were 2 places where the dead went before the cross. Hades/Sheol and Paradise/Abraham’s bosom. Luke 16:19-31. Jesus went to preach to the OT believers in paradise and the ones in Hades/Sheol who repented before they died during the flood. They accepted Jesus and received the spiritual life needed to go to heaven and Jesus ascended on high with the multitude of captives. Eph 4:8. This will not be repeated.

  2. 1 Cor 15:29… Paul was making a point to the Corinthian church that the resurrection is real and will happen when Jesus returns because they were told there is no resurrection.** Pagans** baptized the dead it was not practiced by the church. Look closely at this verse “if the dead are not raised, then why are** they** baptized for the dead?” Paul did not say we ( the church) Pauls point was even the pagans believe in the resurrection.

  3. Rev 22:17… this verse is describing the Spirit and the bride to tell Jesus to come and to evangelize the current world not the people in the LOF. If you pick up in Rev 22:6 these things you read in Revelation “must shortly be done”. Verse 7 Jesus says" Behold I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book". Verse 12 Jesus says “And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work should be” Again, In verse Rev 22:20 He that testifies of these things saith “Surely I come quickly” These verses indicate that Jesus has not come back yet for the book of Revelation to be fulfilled.

  4. 1 Cor 15 24-28… is describing the events in Rev 21. Not a potential post mortem salvation.

I see Mark 3:29; Luke 16:19-31; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-29; 2 Thess 1:8-9; Rev 14:9-11 and of course Rev 20:11-15 as the final judgment of humanity being verses against post mortem salvation.

#77

Could you give a chapter and verse that prove this statement of yours," who are currently in hell".

From what I read in Scripture all dead people (believer or unbeliever) are dead and are waiting for the ressurection. The unbeliever is not in hell being tormented right now, waiting to finally be judged and sent back for some more ECT, they are DEAD!

#78

Luke 16:19-31 and Rev 20:13. Let me guess you are a “soul sleep” after death believer? :question:

#79

Also Rev 20:13 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

#80