The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Do Phil 2:10-11 and Col 1:20 really support UR?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Phil 2:10 and Col 1:20 are favorite verses used to support UR. But what did Paul mean by these verses when left in context?

When we study the word of God, every verse must be left in the context of the passage, every passage must be left in the context of the chapter, every chapter must be left in the context of the book and every book must be left in the context of the entire Bible.** UR gives false hope of life after death for those who die in a spiritual condition of death when these verses are taken out of context.** Lets examine them by looking at Phil 2:10-11 first, and then Col 1:20.

Phil 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Phil 2:5-8. Paul is describing Jesus’ transformation from heaven to earth and humbling himself becoming obedient unto death on the cross. Verse 9 describes Jesus’ resurrection and given a name that is above every name.( authority). Most Christians struggle with this because they don’t know who they are or what they can do in Jesus.

The subject Paul is teaching in Phil 2 is not an eventual confession unto salvation for everyone but the authority in the name of Jesus after his resurrection relative to the authority we have in Jesus as believers. This authority is supported in Eph 1 :19-23.

Col 1:20
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, *, whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

The foundation for everything that happens in the first chapter of Colossians is found in verses 4 and 5. The** subject** of this Chapter.

Col 1:4-5
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Paul is commending the Colossian church for their** faith** in Jesus and their love they are showing in the spirit.

The Father honored the blood of Jesus and esteemed it to be the peace between God and man. God himself has already done his part and demonstrated he has honored the blood, the cross to bring about this peace and reconciliation. Whats left? We have to be the one to come into agreement with the Father that the shed blood of Jesus reconciled us unto God for you to personally to receive it.(faith in Jesus) This reconciliation is based upon your faith in Jesus.

I have said all of that to say this: God’s plan is to restore as many people as possible and creation (heaven and earth) back to a Gen 1 and 2 state before the fall. This reconciliation started with God sacrificing his own son on behalf of the world to give them an avenue to be His literal son’s and daughters (just like Jesus and Adam). Heaven and Earth receives this reconciliation and will be restored back to Gen 1 and 2. Now, what is left?.. for this reconciliation to be complete… anyone that is separated from this reconciliation by the sin or spiritual nature must receive Jesus by faith and have their natures changed with His life and become a son or daughter of God.

Colossians 1:20 in no way is guaranteeing that every human will receive this reconciliation unto sons and daughters of God. The phrase “In earth and in heaven” is there for a reason. The All is for everyone that will receive or has received this reconciliation in earth or in heaven( believers). Earth is for everyone who is physically alive and either has received the reconciliation or has not received the reconciliation but still have an opportunity to receive it as long as they are physically alive… Heaven is for everyone that has physically died but received this reconciliation before they died and are waiting for their glorified bodies in heaven. But what about the people who physically died and did not receive this reconciliation? This is the reason why Under the earth is not included in Col 1:20 because it does not extend beyond the grave to unbelievers in hell. Would you agree that Eph 1:10 has similar content as Col 1:20? Yet UR does not use Eph 1:10 to support it. I believe Paul is saying the same thing in Eph 1:10 as in Col 1:20.

The final outcomes of Col 1:20 are:

  1. The current heaven and earth will be reconciled back to a Genesis 1 and 2 state.
  2. The people in earth will already have received this reconciliation(believers) or will have the opportunity to receive while their alive.(unbelievers)
  3. The in heaven people have already received and are waiting for their glorified bodies.(believers who have physically died)
  4. The people who have physically died without receiving this reconciliation… this reconciliation will not extend a second time past the grave in hell. ( unbelievers who have physically died)
  5. If you disagree with #4 then please show me evidence of this reconciliation extension being received beyond the grave and people being recorded in the book of life and exiting the lake of fire after the final judgment. God bless.*
Dear Revival, why does Yahweh need an eternal Hell?
#2

Revival, I’m having a bit of trouble following your position exactly. You place an emphasis on being saved through personal faith in the Christ (which puts you into a free-will camp). Why are those who do not place faith in the Christ in an eternal hell? And if anyone did place faith in the Christ after their death, would Yahweh welcome them? Thanks.

#3

:confused: My position is that these verses do not talk about UR in the least bit as EU’s says they do.These verses are the most used to defend UR. Their is no record in the Bible of anyone placing faith in Christ after their death. Hebrews 9:27 says: Death then judgment. Not death then placing faith in Christ.

#4

Who says one can’t repent at judgment? You mean God is going to judge you and then either annihilate you or make you suffer in agony for eternity? What’s the point of that? And what’s the point of judging people if all He’s going to do is annihilate you afterward? And if God doesn’t do that, whats the point of allowing suffering in pure agony for all eternity? What can one learn from that? :confused:

#5

Do you see any record of anyone repenting unto salvation at the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15? This judgment is not an alter call unto salvation rather an individual accountability judgment of your life. Read it for yourself and tell me what happens there.

#6

So God loses?

#7

Aaron,

You only assert Phil. 2 affirms Jesus’ exalted authority. Amen! But do you offer ANY reason why that cancels out ANY of the arguments proponents offer that he then obtains genuine & universal confession of Him as Lord? I don’t follow you.

On Col. 1, we agree necessary faith in Christ appears in the earlier context. But you then conclude that peace for “ALL created things” can refer only to those “who have ALREADY done this.” Where is that specified? If those “reconciled” are defined as “ALL things” and the immediate context (vs. 16!) is “all those created” by God, but you insist “all” means only a few amid creation who’ve already believed, haven’t you “ADDED that to the text”?

#8

Revival,

The subject Paul is teaching in Phil 2 is not an eventual confession unto salvation for everyone but the authority in the name of Jesus after his resurrection relative to the authority we have in Jesus as believers. This authority is supported in Eph 1 :19-23.

Your interpretation of this passage doesn’t actually pay attention to what’s being said at all. You know–the vision of everybody in all creation bowing in heartfelt adoration before Jesus and joyfully confessing that He is Lord in a way that glorifies God. You don’t engage that. Paul never says, “By the way, you might think I’m writing about Jesus being exalted, but I’m actually writing about US being exalted! Isn’t that cool?” No, he says that one day, all creation will unite in worship before its true Lord, and the words he uses indicate that this is a voluntary, joyful worship. This is borne out by the Old Testament passage he invokes, where all humanity worships YHWH together joyfully, and Paul emphasizes (not includes, since they would be included by “in Heaven and on Earth,” but emphasizes) that even the dead will be included.

Col 1:20 is not describing all of humanity eventually being reconciled unto God… you have to add that to the text. The context of the first chapter of Colossians verse 20 has ZERO to do with UR but everything to do with the reconcilation of believers in earth and in heaven and eventually creation.

So God isn’t reconciling unbelievers on Earth, then? Strange. I thought He was doing exactly that–reconciling His enemies by dying for them.

At any rate, I’m with Lefein: under the rather weak exegesis of these passages you’re presenting, in which God arbitrarily selects certain groups of people NOT to reconcile (against what the text says), in which some of creation is not joyfully worshipping Jesus (against what the text says), God loses. He fails in His mission. And this is the doctrine that you defend so vigorously with weak exegesis, with passages ripped from their contexts, with special pleading and straw man arguments, with ignoring the very straightforward meanings of words used by their authors.

This doctrine that says, contra Scripture, that all will not receive justification of life, this doctrine that says, contra Scripture, that all will not be made alive in Christ, this doctrine that says, contra Scripture, that those who are made sinners will not be made righteous, this doctrine that says, contra Scripture, that God is the Savior only of believers, and not the Savior of all people, this doctrine that says, contra Scripture, that all will not joyfully worship God, that says, contra Scripture, that God will be some-in-some and Death and Hell and Sin and Condemnation will be most-in-most–is simply not worth the effort you put into forcing the Bible to teach it.

Lay aside your theological system and listen to the Spirit speak through the Word. Read the story of a God who loves the world, who seeks with all His might to reconcile sinners to Himself, who seeks lost sheep until He finds them, lost coins until they are His, who waits for a prodigal world until their own starvation drives them home. This story, and no other, is worthy of the great Author of history. This story, and no other, is the one we find in Scripture. This story, where God wins, where He faced the cross for the joy set before Him and where the travail of His soul is ultimately satisfied, is the Biblical story. And your efforts to oppose that story, while valiant and even honorable, ultimately only highlight the inadequacies of the less victorious story you’re arguing for.

#9

Hi Bob
The subject of Phil 2:1-11 is not talking about UR but the authority in the name of Jesus after his resurrection relative to the authority we have in Jesus as believers not a universal confession unto salvation.

The things in the earth and in heaven pertain to the believers who have already done this. Creation itself is apart of this reconciliation, but I’m focusing on how the reconciliation is applied to us. Paul already made it clear who he is talking about in this reconciliation in Col 1:4-5. If you understand the way reconciliation works…Paul is not referring to All people but all believers.

In verse 16 Paul is just identifying Jesus as being the creator of all things created. In verse 21… Col 1:21 Paul says: YOU in the past were alienated and a enemy to God. If you were alienated and a enemy of God… Paul is saying you were not reconciled to God prior to your faith in Jesus and his completed work on the cross. you are not reconciled until you put your faith into Jesus and therefore Paul could not be talking about all people being eventually reconciled. 1Cor 1:20 is in no way saying eventually all people will be reconciled to God.

Also when do you believe you become apart of God’s creation?

#10

Yes . . . as to the Colossians passage, you’re taking it out of context, Aaron. Yes, Paul is talking to believers (who else would he be talking to in a letter to a church?), but he is talking ABOUT precisely what he says he is talking about:

Well, that’s part of the context – quite a lot in fact, and all that’s needed to make the point. You know where to find the rest. Looks to me like “all” means “ALL,” or at least all things in heaven and all things of the earth. That’s a lot of all to be making peace with. So what is included in the all things being reconciled and made peace with? The same all things that He created, it looks to me like – at least according to Paul.

It’s a matter of perception. I draw, and I teach drawing, and I find that very few people really know what things look like. They think they know, for example what a face looks like, because of course they see faces all the time, all around them and even in the mirror, but unless they’ve consciously studied the face, they never know what a face truly looks like. Not to draw it. And drawing is as easy as writing – it’s seeing correctly that’s hard. I think sometimes we see in the scriptures what we “know” to be there. I know this has been a problem for me. God is slowly bringing me out of it, teaching me to see accurately. There are many things I have been wrong about and I rejoice every time God corrects me because it gives me that much more of His truth to admire.

#11

What a wonderful, heart-stirring admonition and encouragement! This makes me rejoice. After having encountered so much on the Internet that is spiritually uninspiring and doctrinally deficient, this is remarkably refreshing! Thank you for taking the time to diligently ponder and convey your thoughts with remarkable lucidity and compassionate zeal.

David

#12

David,

Thank you for the kind words. :slight_smile: It just seems that the more I learn of the heart of God, about His love and power and wisdom and creativity, the more absurd any theology that posits His ultimate failure seems. And as I hear those theological systems expounded and defended, it only demonstrates how radically unworthy they are of the God of the Bible, the God revealed in Jesus. Sometimes it’s a bit disheartening to see how much energy is put into trying to prop up what seems to me to be nothing more than a mockery and a caricature of the glorious proclamation that Jesus is Lord and that the reign of sin, death, and condemnation has been broken. If we’re to believe that story, then when Paul cries out, “O Death, where is your victory?” Death can point to billions upon billions of people, lost forever and beyond all hope, and answer back, “HERE is my victory!”

#13

Yes. Thank you for that post snitzelhoff .
I think what comes through so clearly in these discussions is the desire of those who, for some reason (and only God can see their heart and understand why), for some reason they do not want the plain reading of the text to be true.

#14

Where did I take Colossians out of context? Do you understand reconciliation and how it works? :confused: When do you believe you become apart of God’s creation?

#15

“The vision of everybody in all creation bowing in heartfelt adoration( as you call it) confessing that He is Lord in a way that glorifies God” happens in Rev 20:11-15. Paul touches on when this happens in Romans 14:10-12. Rev 20:11-15 is not an alter call unto salvation but a individual judgment of ones life. ( and yes when everyone will stand before God they will bow and acknowledge him as Lord and understand how bad they missed it)

“The all creation that unites in worship” happens in Rev 21 after the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. So yea, I agree with you there. Amen! Do you see how it all goes back to my original challenge of showing evidence of anyone being recorded in the book of life and exiting the lake of fire after final judgment? :wink:

Do you understand fully how reconciliation works? If you did, you would not make such a statement. There are two parts in reconciliation. God’s part and your part. And until you do your part you are still alienated and an enemy to God (Col 1:21) If you don’t understand this…go back and read in my post how God sees reconciliation.

Also when do you believe you become apart of God’s creation?

#16

Revival,

I never denied that “there is God’s part and your part” in reconciliation–that reconciliation can only happen if both parties agree to it. But just as the father of the Prodigal would never have rescinded his welcome, so God will never stop seeking to reconcile sinners. Otherwise Paul would not have used language that indicates that the reconciliation of all is something God will certainly bring about–just as certainly as all the fulness dwells in Jesus. When we stop trying to force victorious texts to conform to crippled theology, they make a whole lot more sense. For example, you argue that the “worship” that all creation unites in before God is not joyful or adoring for most of the people involved. But that’s what worship is. It isn’t just being forced to kneel before a tyrannical power that happens to be stronger than you. It’s being swept up in the adoration of one that you love.

That, of course, is why the idea of praise is ever-present in these texts. Peter, Paul, and John would think someone rather strange for suggesting that they envisioned (in any portion) the forced or coerced obeisance from subjugated, condemned, and tormented enemies.

Edit to add:

I missed this part:

Also, when do you believe you become apart of God’s creation?

Is that a trick question? It feels a bit like a trick question. But I’ll bite. You become a part of God’s creation when you begin to exist. As John would (and did, in fact!) put it, “All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” In other words, the moment you begin to exist, you are added to the things “in Heaven and on Earth,” and from that moment, you are part of God’s reconciliatory effort toward all things in Heaven and on Earth.

#17

What you seem to miss is the part about “not counting their tresspasses against them” He’s saying that its over. The war is over God has already forgiven you. You may still be fighting the war not even knowing that the war is over. Good thing your petty fighting can’t hurt God. Repenting is changing your way of thinking ie realizing that you are already forgiven. Whether you realize it or not doesn’t change the fact that God has forgiven you. If He is not counting their tresspasses against them then what need to torture people for all eternity?

Also I’d like to ask you to show where you get that Phi 2 is about our power in Jesus? I’ve read it a few times and I’m not seeing it. Not that there isn’t power in Jesus, but I don’t see that as the central point in Phi 2.

#18

Yes, God has done his part by excepting Jesus’ shed blood on the cross on behalf of the world, but to make this complete you must do your part and put your faith in Jesus…otherwise you still have a sin or spiritual death nature that alienates and make you a enemy to God.

Verse 9 is about Jesus being resurrected and given a name above every name. Verse 10 explains this authority in the name of Jesus.

Also when do you believe you become a part of God’s creation?

#19

So you go on and on about taking things out of context, then you say vs. 9 and 10 don’t support our view but yours, without any other evidence? How about the rest of the chapter? Since we’re speaking of Philippians and you keep saying you must put your faith in Jesus, where do you get this faith from? I’ll give you a hint, its in chapter one. Its corroborated in Romans.

You are not an enemy from Gods perspective only yours if you haven’t accepted the good news.

#20

Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God. (Romans 10:17) You can’t believe the gospel of Jesus unless you hear the word preached or taught.

No, God makes it perfectly clear in Col 1:21 And YOU, that means you redhot were alienated and a enemy of God prior to accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior.( if you have done this)

Also when do you believe you become a part of God’s creation?