I thought what I said was that 3.16 could not be true if God doesn’t exist. I’ll look back later and see if I screwed up.
Obviously, if God does not exist, then He does not love the world, did not give his Son for our sins, nor did he create the world. The universe came out of nothing, chance plus time formed the universe and us, we will all die and so will the earth. No big deal.
Yes,a sceptic - not you Bob - might say that giant monkeys could have created the heavens and the earth. Can that sceptic prove otherwise?
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I thought what I said was that 3.16 could not be true if God doesn’t exist.
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Ah, if that’s what you meant, it makes plenty of intelligible sense.
Honestly, looking back on it, I meant to say the ‘God of the bible’. If 3.16 is not true, then the GOTB does not exist, etc.
Dave, this reminds me of when the Pharisees and Sadducees asked Jesus for a sign to prove that He was from God and that His words were true. I don’t believe that Jesus’ dead body literally came back to life. To me, this isn’t the kind of resurrection they were talking about. If one needs to see a dead body literally come out of the grave and walk around, or an amputated limb grow back again etc. etc. to believe in God then I think he/she might be sadly disappointed because it isn’t happening, at least not in this world. I see miracles everyday and they all have natural explanations. However, that doesn’t make them non-miraculous because of it.
No, it wasn’t Paidion. It was me.
I presented a case, from the Roman Catholic archives. And that assumes the Roman Catholic Church, has always been vigorous and thorough - in its investigation of miracle claims.
Then I presented a scientific explanation. Where the human DNA, could have been temporary altered…like that of lizards, who grow new limbs.
Can a human body regenerate just like a lizard can regenerate its legs?
And I mentioned that, in the Native America world…whose ceremonies have been going on for centuries…what I might call a “miracle”, they would call it a natural occurrence. And they have stories, where their shamans - can metamorphose into various animals. Perhaps some of the “mystical stuff”, that Adam and Eve could do…in the “garden of Eden” - before the fall.
I beg to differ!
But none of this is no more - or less unbelievable…than my theory, that the tribulation and Z-Hell ( 1, 2, 3)…is the most probably, end-times tribulation scenario
.
I was in the area and had never heard of a “theosophical society” and thought it looked interesting. So I went to visit one day with a few friends. We walked around and explored the library; there was no speaker or event at the time we went. I did like it; nice place.
You might like knowing that I watched those Russell FourEagles videos you posted, and it got me checking out a few others too.
Great. The library is a great resource…for just about anything, in religion, philosophy and theology.
As far as the TS goes, these links will help:
Live streaming Youtube webcasts
Recently recorded YouTube webcasts
It should be noted…that I don’t agree, with all speakers and presenters…but I do with Russel 4 Eagles.
I really like Russel 4 Eagles. One thing I noticed…It’s that Tibetan Lamas, Zen Masters and Native American medicine people…have a profound sense of humor…so hanging out with them, over the years - has rubbed off on me.
Yes, but it would still be a natural occurrence per se, as you say here.
Dave, what’s wrong with fairy tales?
I enjoy fairy tales. GMac mainly, but the brothers Grimm have some great ones as well.
So, overall, would most of you in this thread take a position similar to the following?
- God exists and has interacted at various times and places in human history
- People who experienced these interactions wrote about their experiences
- They are fallible humans and so their writings are imperfect
- Nevertheless, we can look for general themes and overarching principles in these writings
- This can give us ideas about truths of God
?
I look forward the what most of us will respond.
I’d be more along the lines of:
- I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
- And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
- Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
- Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
- The third day he rose again from the dead:
- He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
- From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
- I believe in the Holy Ghost:
- I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
- The forgiveness of sins:
1l. The resurrection of the body: - And the life everlasting. Amen.
But I suppose we could throw all that out, because the Bible has some (trivial) errors in it.
Theosophy will certainly get you going in the right direction.
To get back to the original question. I think one can determine that “the Bible” is not infallible if one displays a statement that is given as fact, when actually it is false. I already gave the example of Jude claiming that the writer of the book of Enoch was “the seventh from Adam” (the historic Enoch who did not die—Heb 11:5). But in fact the book of Enoch was written about 300 B.C.
Here is another example of a factual error.
When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death. And they bound him and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate the governor.
Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not proper to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they took counsel and bought with them the potter’s field as a burial place for strangers. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.” (Matt 27:1-10)
Barnes correctly states, “The words quoted here are not to be found in the prophecy of Jeremiah. Words similar to these are recorded in Zec 11:12,13, and from that place this quotation has been doubtless made.”
When a Native American Medicine or Holy person, says something is “natural”…it would cover things we say:
-
Are accomplished by science
-
Are accomplished by means, outside the realm of science
For example. A zombie from Z-Hell ( 1, 2, 3) appears. We might say that it’s
-
science run amok.
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Or the devil is behind this.
The Native American would say it’s “natural”.
Good points. My concern is with those who would take such information and then immediately go to: we can’t trust the bible. Which is faulty reasoning.
Here’s an interesting (and apparently related) article, from today’s Patheos Evangelical newsletter:
And here’s another interesting article, from the same newsletter today:
Let me quote an interesting paragraph:
Second, pastors should do a PhD to hone the skill of “destroying arguments” (2 Cor. 10:4-5). Listen to the apostle Paul for a second: For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete (2 Corinthians 10:4–6). A PhD trains you in a given discipline to think with extreme care and great confidence from the Word of God. It helps you to emulate Paul and to “destroy arguments” that threaten to enslave the people of God. A Pauline ministry enters into warfare against lies. Doing a PhD will strengthen many men as they prepare for this holy work.
Now getting a PhD, to defeat arguments…reminds me of a song
And for Paidion:
Not if you can find somebody, giving a reasonable explanation. I’m not sure about the first point…as I can’t generate the appropriate keywords…But I think I found, the best substitute keywords - so here goes…but I can provide explanations, for your second point.
Time for the new game show - Point Counterpoint
For Jude and Enoch
Let me quote a bit:
The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300 BCE, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the 1st century BCE.[4]
Q199 : Does Jude Quote from the Book of Enoch?
Let me quote a section:
Whether Jude was knowledgeable of 1 Enoch or not, the fact that this prophecy concerning Enoch also appears in 1 Enoch has no direct bearing on the trustworthiness of Jude and the clear evidence that although Jude is part of the inspired Biblical canon the book of 1 Enoch most certainly is not. Just because similar information may be recorded by two different authors or works does not establish that one was necessarily dependent upon the other or that either or both are reliable in all that they record. Other factors must be appealed to when considering original sources and relative reliability.
For mixed prophets
My own take, is what this Orthodox poster shared:
I think necessary is that Bible according to Orthodox faith contains everything necessary for salvation and is given by God.
And a Catholic position
This careful scholar-speak underscores that whatever truth is needed for our ultimate rescue from sin and death is entirely and safely transmitted by these sacred stories. While we modern folks rely on science to “tell us the truth” about reality, our ancestors used storytelling as the preferred medium for conveying what is genuine and reliable. Are there discrepancies between the cultural awareness and scientific sophistication of writers who lived 2,500 years ago and today? Most certainly. Their antique perceptions of the world don’t jeopardize the transformative story of how God is creator, redeemer, and sanctifier of us all.
Otherwise, it boils down to a game - Protestants like to play. Let’s example the Bible, under a microscope.
Is the Christian God infallible?
If you like, yes. It’s a general question.
Tomatohorse, I really appreciate your diligent effort to understand how others come at these questions, and your summary is perhaps more in the ballpark for me, than for some others.
I do perceive that underneath this issue is whether we think final authority for us is essentially external (e.g. whatever our literature, leader or pope says), or whether we see that there is no way to avoid exercising internal authority, in the sense that we must exercise our own evaluation of what is true and resonates with truth and morality the best we are able to evaluate and discern it.
My impression is that without such inner evaluation, embracing the Bible as the only authority or even as infallible would just be arbitrary. How would someone decide to give it that credence if they are not able themselves to exercise some capacity to evaluate propositions as to whether they are valid?
Methodism’s founder, John Wesley said there are least four ways to discern what is true and right: Scripture, experience, reason, and tradition. I.e. perhaps as you imply, we don’t just prooftext the Bible, but look for patterns in what we can learn from, and apply various ways to evaluate one source by another. e.g.Paidion offered a practical example of where he’s quite willing to reason that particular statements in the Bible are quite plainly incorrect.
My perception is that even those who say that they just submit to the Bible as an external authority, show in the way they accentuate and interpret particular ideas and verses that they too are much guided by what internally and yes subjectively, resonates with them. For me, the themes of the Bible that I am most sure of are the ones that I already sense are true by such things as my experience, my conscience, my sense of what is most reasonably historical, and the internal spiritual witness that I sense.
For me personally, despite seeing Bible writers as fallible, I find a treasure trove of wisdom in their effort to bear witness to their own experience and observation of history (especially being deeply impressed with the wisdom and way of Jesus). You may see less. But the neat thing about e.g. Wesley’s sense that there are multiple ways to evaluate claims to truth and wisdom, is that it allows you and I some common ground to compares notes on what we find most convincing.
Indeed, if one thinks that cognitive conformity and correctness are not what any Reality worth calling God has put the premium on, nor has made clear, then the reality that we each vary in what makes sense to us, and how we formulate our beliefs, is no crisis at all. It can actually keep life quite interesting.
All the best to you,
Bob
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Nicely put, clear and informative.
I knew you had this in your back pocket and was hoping to get it out of you about 200 posts ago.
Anyway, not my particular stand, but very well presented. Thanks.
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