You are right, of course.
When I wrote that we all die physically, I didn’t think of those relatively few who will not die, but be “caught up” when Jesus returns—that is they are few relative to all people who have existed since the world began and those who shall exist.
Qaz… didn’t take any notice at all of what I posted about Israel’s two-stage eschatological resurrection, i.e., the firstfruits of that era, as per Jn 5:25 culminating in the full harvest, as per Jn 5:28-29?
Are you reading Jesus’ words about “all who are in their graves will come out” as Jesus referring to Rome’s AD70 assault on Jerusalem, and this as the “full harvest”?
Given that from my position… the resurrection of Jn 5:28-29 is part of what winds up the old covenant era in terms of the judgment and parousia then YES Bob.
Many people’s fleshly expectations caused them to miss His first coming… could it be that of the same many have missed His second?
As I understand it this is the flow of 1Cor 15…
“The dead” constituted OC Israel who had died prior to the ministry of Christ (Acts 26:6-8). Certain Gentiles felt that since the Jews had rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God in turn had summarily cut them off from being His people (Rom 11:1-2, 11, 18-19).
“Some” at Corinth taught that “the dead” would not be raised (vs. 12).
Paul argued that if this were the case, the ramifications are deadly for the Gentiles. For if “the dead” are not raised, neither then is Jesus, given he is intricately connected with “the dead”, i.e., Israel (vs. 13, 16).
Furthermore, if the dead are not raised then… a) Christ is not risen, b) our preaching is useless, c) your faith is vacuous, d) we are found to be false witnesses, e) your faith is futile and, f) you are still stuck in your sins (vs. 14-17).
Thus… if Jesus be not raised, then those at Corinth were indeed still in their sins, and as such would not be the recipients of resurrection life either.
As the “firstfruits,” Christ was adding believers into his body… “a kind of firstfruits” (Jas 1:18) that they might be perfected through the complete establishment of the new covenant, at which time in the parousia the rest of the harvest is gathered in, i.e., the resurrection takes place.
Once the firstfruits were perfected then the whole harvest (resurrection) would occur. At that time, Jesus would gather all believers together to present them to the Father (vss. 23-24).
The body prepared by God in which all were raised was the body of Christ (1Cor 12:27; 15:45-49). The first Adam could only bring physical existence… the last Adam wrought life everlasting (vs. 45).
Some at Corinth would still be alive when all this took place (vs. 51).
The occurrence of this event would signal the time that “the death” loses “the sting” because “the sin” has lost “the power” which was “the law” (vs. 56) — the law being encapsulated in the Temple / Sacrifices / Priesthood all of which came crashing down in the conflagrations of AD70.
At the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 the covenantal Parousia of Christ, in Judgment and at his Kingdom took place, and the dead were raised thus fulfilling all eschatological elements, as Paul admonishes Timothy here…
2Tim 4:1-2 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom; preach the word! Be ready….” Cf. Mt 16:27-28
I’m actually speaking of the resurrection of the dead where one (the firstfruits) preceded the other (the harvest); as opposed to your spiritual/biological death. The resurrection as pertaining to Israel was covenantal not biological — Jesus’ resurrection was biological in as far as it needed to be to fulfil his mission in-kind with what is noted in that article you reference in an earlier post above…
Jesus rose with a physical body that still contained wounds from his passion (John 20:27). His glorious body would not be assumed until His ascension. Therefore, the resurrection of Christ was not for the purpose of demonstrating what kind of physical body we will be resurrected with, but rather to prove that Christ had conquered the realm of the dead.
Their where two “bodies” from the beginning of Israel- Isaac ( those who followed the true word of God / God’s people) and Ishmael ( those who worshipped pagan gods from which the Levitical law came). Those who followed the Lev. law were NOT God’s people. And yes they were being cut off as it says: " Every tree which does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire,"
The Lev. law/priestthood had no power in the beginning. They weren’t a part of Israel and had no inheritance in it as per Moses’ instructions. They were scattered( broken up) among the tribes. The true word of God was the dominant force in Israel and it is what caused them to come into the promised land.
Jesus was connected to Isaac whose word and way of life died out being replaced by another way( Lev. law./ Temple/ Sarifices/ Kings) which became the dominant force.
The truth of God and His way of life “died” and this was what was being raised from the dead. Whereas the dead/ false word was being torn down.
LLC, for what it’s worth… you can pretty much say most as you do without quoting any of my posts given what you say after quoting me bears little real resemblance to the prior quotes themselves. Plus… I can only assume so much of what you share in your own posts comes from extra-biblical sources (??) because they likewise bear little real resemblance as to what the bible actually has to say… your above contribution being current evidence of this.
I call it “pick and choose”. And correct me if I’m wrong, LLC. You pick what parts of the Bible, agree with your worldview. And throw out (or “radically reinterpret”), parts that don’t agree - with your worldview.
Anyway, I mentioned that I know the husband…of contemporary, Old Catholic mystic - Tiffany Snow…he’s an Old Catholic Church priest. And she is a contemporary, Christian mystic. Let me share an article of hers - regarding her visions:
The Third Secret ‘The Secret’ Didn’t Tell You
Let me quote a bit of “radical” stuff, from the article:
I was first awakened by a lightning-strike and near-death experience in 1999. Since then, there has been continual communion with the other side and further choices to empirically experience Divine Love through times of stigmata, which began in 2005. I have learned many deeper things and further clarity on things that are popular and already known. So for me, since I had come from a traditional religious background, one of my first questions was; “What religion is the right one?” The answer: “All those who love me.” Another question; “Are the Holy Scriptures complete?” The answer: “All the Holy Books are incomplete, so that man may reach out to me, and I will greet him, and he will know me by name.” All this made sense to me more than anything before, and empirical experience made it something I couldn’t ignore.
But, our good intentions are allowed to fly free – and are buoyed by our own energy. This is why the more passion and excitement we have over something, the greater chance it has of being accomplished and coming to fruition. This is when we experience the short-term financial gain, the reprieve from the illness, the flash of inspiration. This is also why we can feel exhausted and drained, even when our compassion moves us to these great things. This is the second part of intention, and why even our best efforts don’t last or are as powerful as we want them to be, because they are limited by our ability to create and sustain it through our own energy.
Now the key - the third part of intention is the ability to go beyond our own energy and to participate in the Divine Connection. The missing piece is God. It doesn’t matter what you call him, he knows what his name is. And there has to be a separate free will intention to allow this participation. Free will is a powerful and respected thing we all have and there is no “automatic” switch that goes on once we make a choice. There has to be an active desire, a place of connection or prayer, a joint participation of purpose. This is where we go beyond ourselves in the vulnerability and strength of Divine Love and interaction, beyond our higher self. This is the true secret of the universe, and where everything happens.
This is where the miracles occur. This is where any healing modality becomes “the best one;” where we recognize and sustain a loving relationship; where lasting abundance fulfills our every need. It is a place of connection beyond ourselves, but it cannot be done without our participation either. It is also not a place of simply “thy will be done.” It goes beyond that too – it is a place of active positive intention with all the specific details you envision it with. When you do this, you receive one of three answers back in return. (1). Yes. (2). Not yet. (3). I’ve got a better idea than that. But without a doubt, you will be answered, and in a way that you will recognize, because you have remembered to be detailed and specific in your intentions.
Two things occur when you do this: (1). You will know without a doubt that energy exists beyond your own and cares about you, and (2). You will recognize the celestial interventions that manifest in front of you, and grab onto them without fear, and also let any doors close behind you without fear as well. It is then you will begin to empirically experience the joy you always knew existed but couldn’t sustain for long. You will be living your life between candle and flame, beyond any religion of habit, past bad metaphysics - in the fullness of love, abundance, and health, and you will be doing it Divinely. And you will empirically experience the final results matching your greatest expectations and intentions; for with love, all secrets can be revealed. END
On the other hand, this is from today’s Patheos Catholic newsletter:
Could this young girl, have seen visions of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3)?
Let me quote a bit;
I remember playing with my cousin in my aunt’s basement when I was around 8 years old. We used to chase each other around and try to scare each other for fun. I hid around the corner at the bottom of the stairs after chasing her around the rooms. I peered around the corner for a split second. I was certain I saw a tall, scrawny, ghoulish figure nonchalantly passing directly in front of me. I remember the image of a lanky arm with long, bony fingers directly in front of my face. I was so terrified by this vision that I immediately pulled back around the corner and cried in a panic. My cousin called to me from across the basement,
“What?! What is it?!”
While hyperventilating, I slowly peered around the corner again but the ghastly figure was nowhere to be seen. My cousin ran towards me to see where I was at. I asked if she saw anything and she said she did not. Looking back, I’m almost certain what I saw was a figment of my imagination running wild while playing. But what strikes me is the sheer detail I remember of the grisly hand as well as the seemingly graceful movement of whatever I saw.
This vision, although very brief and obscure, haunts me to this very day.
Similarly, I also remember how my mind used to conjure up other very strange sights when I was young. Sometimes at night I could visualize ghastly faces in the wood-grain panelling of my bedroom. Once in a while in between dreaming and waking up, I swore I could see terrifying skeleton-like apparitions with enlongated craniums lingering in the doorway of my room, glaring and smiling at me so dauntingly while I lay helplessly. There was something about lying in bed at night that made me feel extremely vulnerable. It was as though I could be abducted and swept off into the night by some hellish entity. I can’t say that I’ve ever experienced sleep paralysis, but these visions could easily be dismissed as half-dreaming hallucinations.
You cite vs. 24, referring to when God “has destroyed all dominion, authority and power,”
defined in 25 as all enemy powers, such that then God will be “all in all” (28).
Does this mean that you see all evil enemy powers as now destroyed by AD70?
If this is what the promise of one day coming out of the grave like Jesus did meant,
the powers of evil still appear a bit vigorous to me.
I was with you long ago.
At some point if you start to think of man’s ways not as ‘evil’, but at what man does. He is in a constant state of wanting to be God. We see it as evil, but the fact is that man is progressing. He wants to control, to be the one in control, and we are all in cahoots in a certain way.
The progression of man is quite astounding in that man has made a progression from a primitive cave being to a society that is worrying about culture, climate, equality…
Much of what I say here you seem to agree with… Why the negativity?
It sounds like you are willing to give up the Hope of the World for a will-o-the-wisp of 'progress;, which you equate with machines? Which also helped to slaughter countless millions in the last century?
Progress??
This annulling of all that has opposed the redemptive workings of God through Christ is the fulfilment of Jesus’ declaration of Mt 28:18, and now in the parousia complete. That 40yr period where from the ascension forward Jesus was bringing those opposing forces to heal (“for he must reign” vs. 25), to where in finality in the parousia “the last enemy the death” is brought to naught, vs. 26.
Now given past interactions I can appreciate it may mean little to you BUT to others it may be of interest to know, and so I’ll point it out… this “abolition” this “bringing to naught” this “rendering useless” of all that has been opposing God’s redemptive workings WAS in that age BEING brought to an end, i.e., the Greek text shows this defeat of the last enemy to be in the then present tense — this winding up of all that gained traction under the OC, particularly the death was to finish and such was happening then — it was resolved then.
As I note earlier… Many people’s fleshly expectations caused them to miss His first coming… could it be that of the same many have missed His second? Being united in THE LIKENESS OF His death and resurrection did not nor does not require a 1:1 correlation for such to be true… it just doesn’t!
You will NOT be… “one day coming out of the grave like Jesus did” for IF you did THEN you would be resurrected right back into the very self-same terra firma of THIS LIFE you already now occupy and know, because that’s exactly what Jesus did. No… when you die you will find yourself wonderfully translated to the very presence of God (Paidion’s hiatus aside) forever! — how ever it is that God has orchestrated that to be.
I don’t see recognizing that evil still retains some power as especially negative.
I just see it as realistically honest.
You first appear to answer, Yes, all evil powers are already destroyed,
reasoning that it says they are brought to an end in the present tense.
I see 25 say it won’t happen “until” he shall have put all enemies under his feet. I see 27 quote Psalm 8:6’s present tense promise as what that day will fulfill. And I see 28 conclude using the future tense that this time “when everything shall have been put in subjection to Him” is when Jesus “will be made subject” so that God will be “all in All.” I’m not clear on where Paul says this was already accomplished in the present tense. Which verbs say that?
My argument was that evil powers do not yet honestly appear entirely destroyed.
And you respond that people have “fleshly expectations” which cause them to “miss” what God does.
Is not this soberly consistent with my perception that evil powers have not already been brought to nothing?
P.S. you assert we won’t be resurrected to terra firma like Jesus was, but apparently just immediately be in God’s heavenly presence. Does that mean you reject many like Wright who read Paul as informed by Judaism’s expectation of a bodily resurrection and life on this renewed terra firma (and indeed sees the Biblical expectation as not going to be with God in heaven, but life in His Kingdom here)?
Bob to Chad!
Well, whether evil is “what man does” …or something that retains power…I DON’T WANT IT! And no matter how hard I try…to push the zombies of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3), out of my life - they keep coming back!
Ya, I kind of reject that. Most of my research tends to lead to a spiritual awakening at death. You could call it heaven if you were a Christian, but I believes it transcends that in my view and encompasses more than those just proclaiming Christianity and one of the many denominational splinters.
FWIW, I today can’t even totally rule out some ‘sort’ of reincarnation, in that a spirit could well be needed to do a specific job for the creator.
I kind of look forward to the time when we from different religious backgrounds can come together and talk about God.
Thanks, my focus was not on what makes sense to us personally, but on how to read Paul as a first century Jew.
Two things you are reading right over and NOT paying attention to… 1) my language, and 2) what I actually say.
I said, all that was opposing the redemptive workings of God, i.e., His purposes, were annulled, meaning — their opposing power to hinder His purposes was stripped, i.e., brought to nil effect; THAT does not constitute non-existent, as YOUR OWN repetitious “destroyed” implies… you’re the one saying that not me and then drawing your own conclusions accordingly, to which I’ve made no argument.
Jesus was resurrected right back into THIS PRESENT terra firma that you and I both occupy, i.e., the SAME WORLD Jesus left… that indeed was as Wright notes, the expectation of many in OC Israel. You, Wright and evangelicalism, however, expect, as you say in your post, a resurrection to a… renewed terra firma — THAT IS radically different from Jesus’ resurrection back into OUR WORLD as He knew it, and thus by the very nature of the things NOT the same as the resurrection you claim into a renewed terra firma — THAT WAS NOT Jesus’ resurrection; so how can you claim likeness?
