The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does a desire for Universalism make one a Universalist?

Practices Christian Living
#1

Or, alternatively,

Is Wanting Universalism to be True good enough to make one a Universalist?

Sorry to bother everyone with what may seem a mundane question. And sorry for putting it here – though it seems to fit pretty well I think.

But here’s the setting…
You know me to be a convinced believer in UR. Well, I’ve a very close friend (fighting, so far it seems a losing, a battle with breast cancer) who by the way is the first one ever to challenge me with the idea of Universal Restoration, (though she has not herself fully embraced the truth…) who once upon a time referred another of our email friends (he lives in Oregon; never met him before today…) to me because he appeared to have an interest in the topic…

Ahh she thought – I’ll pass him along to Bob.

Well, full confession. It didn’t go well at all. He approached me with questions. Which I tried my best to answer. But he also came with a desire to argue and debunk me. I didn’t want that, nor felt inclined to engage on that level. And very much on the lines of “we have free will” – “God will respect our decision to go our own way” – “God will honor our ‘choice’ to choose annihilation” etc etc

Fine I said – if that’s how you see things fine. You asked me why I embraced UR, and I told you. I neither asked for, nor wanted, an argument with you.
And so we ended not entirely with acrimony, but it wasn’t entirely with soft fuzzy feelings either…

Jump ahead a few years and he’s now here on vacation visiting Disney. With his wife, Brenda. And his 23 year old son, who is autistic. And he wants to get together and have lunch. So we have lunch today.
And yes, I was ambivalent about the whole thing. Old wounds, hurt feelings, and the rest…

But wow – was it a blessing!!!
His devotion and compassion for his autistic son, was heart melting – not that it was hardened or anything… He has no idea how God will “save” his son; though he can think of no reason why He wouldn’t. One of the “R’s” of UR is “restoration” I tell him… God can/will “restore” your son to His image and original intent.

And then he says to me that he badly wants to believe in Universalism… He says he’s “about 95% there”… It’s just that he allows for a state of affairs, of reality, of human will, wherein God has no other choice but to accept a ‘decision’ against Him. And, sadly, He lets us go to our final death of annihilation… if that be our choice…

And I found myself telling him this… and I’m asking your opinion here, if I was wrong…
His name is Mark…
“Mark” I said… “it is enough for me to hear that you want Universalism to be true… God is going to do what He will regardless of when our perceptions of His actions catch up with reality. All I want is an acceptance of the coherent beauty of the idea of Universalism… A desire that it be true…”
And he liked that…

So then my question here:
Is Wanting Universalism to be True good enough to make one a Universalist?

Blessings,

Bobx3

#2

I wouldn’t actually ‘define’ someone in this way. I just know that it seems to me that those who tell me they hope universalism is true have their hearts in the right place. I always tell them, “Compared to many, you’re so close to the kingdom, you might as well be in it!”

#3

I’d say the desire at least makes one a hopeful universalist!

#4

I’d go with that one, Melchi. :smiley:

But we are all on the journey our Papa has set for us, aren’t we, Bob? Your new friend will get to where he’s going and while you’ve been honored to perhaps help him along the way, you are responsible to do only that which is set before you. He knows you’re a human being like himself and that perhaps you’re right or perhaps you’re wrong, so I wouldn’t worry about what you said at all. That is your genuine opinion at the time and I’m sure your friend understands that as well as you do.

It is a beautiful thing to see others loving people and desiring God. I don’t think Abba undervalues that in the slightest. I think it is as infinitely precious to Him as it is to us as we see our own children making progress toward truth.

#5

…Yes – maybe it really doesn’t matter so much; maybe it’s just a step or nudge in the right direction…

I often wonder if I’m a Universalist because that’s what I’m predicting will happen?
– or because that’s the only logical outcome if God is who I think He is – ie His character is what I believe it is,
– or because that’s what the bible clearly (after certain “cobwebs” are swept away…) asserts as much…
Probably a little bit of all three.

I’m recalling that when Jesus says with man this is not possible, but with God all things are possible, it’s in a context of a seemingly un-savable segment of the population (the rich) being saved. (I think I’m recalling those words correctly…)

Now it seemed a relief to my friend Mark that no, I wasn’t really sure how God saves all while respecting freedom. However, it’s quite likely that when truly “free” we make the right choice. That when adequately informed (ie “free” from ignorance and lies) and fully empowered (ie “free” from those illusions that bind us; those forces which psychologically cause us to act against our own good) then we WILL come home where the Father is already waiting to welcome us with supper on the table…

Mark said “I wish more folks were drawn by the glory of the prize than driven by fear of the stick…”
So he’s definitely thinking about it!!

Thanks all,
Bobx3

#6

Exactly! At least that’s the way I see it. (fwiw) I got that from Thomas Talbot – can’t claim credit for it. I agree with him that for a truly free, rational, informed person to continue forever to choose that which is unequivocally against his own joy and best interests is deeply incoherent. And an irrational person has no free will. In order to give people a truly free choice it’s necessary to remove unfair handicaps such as lack of information, irrationality, insanity, etc. Nevertheless, blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe. (ie: they make it to the wedding feast, escape “hell” sooner, and get to help the others find their way home, too.)

#7

Sorry to pour cold water on best wishes but I might have a desire to be 20 years younger. That neither makes me ‘hopeful’ that I actually AM 20 years younger, nor does it make me believe that I am 20 years younger.
So, my thoughts are that WANTING UR to be true (and I would hope that the vast majority of ECTers or annihilationists would want so) does not mean that the WANTER is either a hoper (in the sense that he believes it a possibility) or a believer.

The good news however, is that by your witness Bob, and God’s good grace, your friend has declared that he is 95% there. Now that is cause for rejoicing!

#8

One doesn’t have to be a Universalist to believe in Jesus----being a Universalist just makes believeing better. Even if Universalism was not true, I think your friend’s son would be saved anyway, because Jesus loved children and thats basically what this person is, a very damaged child.

And I think one does not have to believe in Christian Universalism for it to be true, if it is true it exsists for everyone regardless of their belief or lack of it. Its like the earth is round, even if you are a flat earth person your belief does not change that fact.

Now, if your friend is not yet a Christian, as oposed to not yet being a Christian Universalist then I agree with Pilgrim and you gave good testimony. I think it is better to come to belief in this life when possible.

Regarding free will, you might want to refer your friend to “Dropping Hell and Embracing Grace” by Ivan A. Rogers. Especially refer him to Chapter 8. I am a CEU and I am still thinking on this one–it might be world view changing.

#9

Agreed with Pilgrim, although if Mark isn’t certain some people will be annihilated then he can still be hopeful that universalism is true. Thus a hopeful universalist, rather than a dogmatic one.

As I have argued elsewhere, I actually think it is technically possible to expect one or another type of ECT in practice while also being technically a Christian universalist: the distinction being that our soteriology ought to be based primarily on what God does rather than on what sinners do, and if God never stops acting to lead all sinners out of sin then universalism would be true even if a never-ending stalemate was (for whatever reasons) the result. I don’t think there could be a practical annihilationism and also a technical universalism, though. This is especially true when annihilation is supposed to be based on God somehow respecting a sinner’s free will by either allowing the sinner to destroy his own free will or actively destroying the free will of the sinner (along with the sinner) Himself!

As a big believer in God’s intention to love and respect His creatures in providing their freedom of will, I couldn’t possibly be an annihilationist, or a type of ECTist where free will to be righteous is locked out (much less never granted in the first place): I’d be logically incoherent to try to have both in my soteriology. I would eventually have to drop my belief in God’s respect for free will or in the hopeless punishment.

#10

As some other people have also said, I will add that I don’t see that it matters to God very much (aside from a question of truth and hope etc.) what one’s soteriology is, so long as people aren’t actively resistant to the idea of people being saved from their sins. That would be a big attitude problem. Someone could wish (as Pilgrim said) that universalism is true and yet be cognitively certain it isn’t, without any resulting spiritual problems of their own; other people might reject universalism in principle without really understanding what it is they’re rejecting (essentially denying the name of Jesus), and not be held particularly liable for doing so.

From what you said, I’m not worried about Mark in that regard, and I wanted to clarify that. :slight_smile:

#11

Hey, if your friend lives in Oregon, then maybe he could join my UR group :wink:

That or he could hang out with Mel or I :wink:

Which reminds me, you and I need to find a time to meet and hang out, Mel :slight_smile:

#12

Yes, I know; unfortunately life has gotten “interesting” lately with my son’s health…

#13

Sorry to hear that bro :neutral_face:

#14

My wife swears the reason that my family is so accepting of UR is because so many have died way too young. I have not always been accepting of UR but who knows why I am so hopeful that it could be true. I really thing that I believe God is big enough to get what He wants and scripture seems to suggest that He does.

And I believe what I believe
Is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not
The invention of any man

Rich Mullins’ Creed