The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?


#61

Auggy.

  1. Read 1 Peter 3:18 Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust. Read the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.
  2. Is not relevant for this discussion.
  3. Is everyone saved? No. Why? Because God has made the payment, but you must receive it. Each individual must appropriate by faith what God has already provided by grace in order for it to take effect in their life. If you don’t understand this balance of Grace and Faith…I pray someday you will Auggy.

#62

Auggy.

1) Read 1 Peter 3:18 Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust. Read the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.
For (A)Christ also died for sins (B)once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might ©bring us to God, having been put to death (D)in the flesh, but made alive (E)in the spirit;

2) Is not relevant for this discussion.
Of course not for you because if Jesus is speaking of being lifted up just as the serpent is (John 3) then it’s perfectly correct to say the sick will be drawn to him. So the only way you can avoid the Universalist interpretation is to say the lifting up of John 3 is totally irrelevant to John 12 and NO ONE WILL BUY THAT. Can you at least explain why the 2 lifting ups phrases are not the same?

3) Is everyone saved? No. Why? Because God has made the payment, but you must receive it. Each individual must appropriate by faith what God has already provided by grace in order for it to take effect in their life. If you don’t understand this balance of Grace and Faith…I pray someday you will Auggy.
What it does not say is that God can punish innocent people and be just. You’re not answering the question. If Jesus paid for the sin of person A then if A dies w/o being saved will he have to pay for his sins?


#63

Auggy.

Does he pay for his sins? Yes and No. He pays for rejecting Jesus and being who he is… spiritually dead. Being spiritually dead keeps you separated from God for eternity. That is why we must be born again or reborn spiritually.


#64

Auggy.

Btw, faith is a gift from God and not from ourselves. Human beings have sense knowledge faith that is limited to the 5 senses. We need supernatural faith to believe what we can’t see, God’s faith.( Romans 4:17) Man is so destitute that he can’t even believe the gospel on his own. To receive God’s gift of salvation, we have to receive the supernatural, God kind of faith first. Where does this faith come from? How do we get it? Romans 10:17 says, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” God’s Word contains His faith. As we hear the Word of God about our salvation, God’s faith comes so that we can believe the good news of our salvation. We actually use God’s faith to get saved. But one can reject this gift of faith or they can receive it.


#65

I sometimes click to see what you are saying, because sometimes you say silly things. So, where does Scripture say you can reject ‘the gift of faith’?


#66

Faith comes from the Mercy of God. For us to be able to believe (like Lydia) God has to open our hearts in order to even have the faith to believe. In other words God has mercy on whom he wishes and it is not DEPENDENT on man’s efforts or his desires. Do you believe God’s mercy does depend on mans desires/will/belief/choices?
Aug


#67

Craig.

Does everyone accept Jesus’ finished work on the cross? No. Does everyone you preach the gospel to get saved? No. God’s faith which came to us as a gift through hearing God’s Word (Rom. 10:17)… You can resist it or receive it.

Example: Paul witnessing to King Agrippa in the in the book of Acts. Acts 26:28 “in a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.” King Agrippa resisted the gift of faith through hearing God’s Word and did not believe and receive what Jesus has done for him. If you don’t believe and receive…you will doubt and do without.

Example: Stephen witnessing to stiff-necked Jews in the book of Acts. Acts 7:51" You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

These Jews also resisted the gift of faith through hearing God’s Word and did not believe and receive Jesus and stoned Steven.


#68

Auggy.

Faith is a gift from God by grace which comes by hearing the Word of God.( Eph 2:8; Rom 10:17) It is God’s faith, not our own. His grace extends to everyone not just who he has mercy on.( Titus 2:11) God shows mercy to all ( Rom 11:32).

Auggy, you can stiff-neck the Holy Spirit and not believe and receive salvation.( Acts 7:51; Acts 26:28-29)


#69

Aaron37,
You can quote arminian free will scriptures all day and it won’t win an argument. You just don’t get it that God’s mercy is based on whom he has mercy and it does not always mean “those who repent”. You really should read this site more, it would clear up much.

There are 3 premises which people fall into:

  1. God genuinely wills that all men come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and be saved
  2. God in his omnipotence has the power and ability to bring ALL men FREELY unto salvation
  3. Most people end up in hell seperated from God without any availability of mercy.

You fall into rejecting group two: God does not have the power to bring it about that men FREELY accept the gospel.
Calvinist into rejecting group one: God does not love for for God’s WILL can NEVER be thwarted and therfore the ELECT (whom are predestined before the foundation of the world) will be saved and the reprobates damned.
Univesalists: We believe God loves all as scripture over and over declares and does indeed want every single man to repent. We also believe God’s will cannot be thwarted and he will get what he wants in the end. Hell passages are metaphors of fire, salting, darkness, seperation from God, cut to pieces, weeping, gnashing of teeth which are ambiguous and are not literal.

While Arminians try to argue for the sov. of God I have found them to always lack.

For example, you claim God draws all men (becauses he has mercy on all men) so is God TRYING to save all men or NOT?


#70

Auggy, you can stiff-neck the Holy Spirit and not believe and receive salvation.( Acts 7:51; Acts 26:28-29).
If a person rejects the Holy Spirit would you say God has softened their heart? Or would you say they have a hard heart?


#71

Auggy.
First, you have to drop all the man made labels ( Arminian, Calvinist, etc). That is religion to its core. Second, God does not have mercy on whom He wishes. That is contrary to Titus 2:11; 1John 2:2 ; Romans 11:32 and many others. I do not fall into any premise. God has done everything he is going to do to save mankind. He sent his Son to bear the Judgment and pay the penalty of the sins of the world…so you can have a relationship with God through Jesus. God has reconciled himself back to man…Will man reconcile themselves back to God? How? Believe and receive or doubt and do without.

God does not try to do anything… he has already provided salvation by grace through faith to the world.( Titus 2:11) The question is will each individual appropriate by faith what God has already provided by grace in order for Jesus’ payment to take effect in their lives?


#72

Auggy.

you said: if a person rejects the Holy Spirit would you say God has softened their heart? Or would you say they have a hard heart?

Aaron37: Their heart is already hard due to the fact their sinners. They resist the Holy Spirit because they chose to do so.

Btw, you have not provided any scripture support of anything you have said to me and have discarded my support.


#73

Aaron, thank you for answering. You said:
Auggy.

Please reconcile this with Romans 9 where paul states: God will have mercy on whom he has mercy and harden whom he hardens…It therefore DOES NOT DEPEND ON MANS EFFORTS OR HIS DESIRES but on whom he has mercy (which is up to him).

You need to start arguing why you believe this and not just restating it.

This is EXACTLY what free will thinking dribbles down to…God isn’t really TRYING to save the lost…
which is a real way of saying…God doesn’t love you that much.

For if a FATHER loves his dying child he will DO EVERYTHING to save that child but LFW has to abandon the notion of a God who loves the world and is actually ACTIVE in saving the person from the softening of the heart,

It tells the lost world…though you are lost God’s not looking for you.

If you try to argue otherwise then you are simply contradicting yourself. This is a major flaw in free will which diminshes the Love of God into nothing more than a father who throws his son a lifesaver and screams at him instructions that he needs to get the lifesaver.

In the Reformed and Univesalist point of view. God has jumped into the water and will DRAG all men unto himself. In other words, the lost dont find God, HE FINDS THEM.
Aug


#74

Auggy.

you said: Please reconcile this with Romans 9 where paul states: God will have mercy on whom he has mercy and harden whom he hardens…It therefore DOES NOT DEPEND ON MANS EFFORTS OR HIS DESIRES but on whom he has mercy (which is up to him).

Aaron37: At first Pharaoh hardened his own heart; God’s judgments only made it harder, and then God gave him over (Ro 1:28). God only made harder, by his judgments and by leaving him to his folly, one who had already hardened his own heart. That he was given over to madness is shown in the record. Even his magician said, This is the finger of God (Ex 8:19). He himself once said, I have sinned; the Lord is righteous (Ex 9:27). Had he not hardened himself again, the result would have been different. Then God gave him up to his own folly, to hardness of heart and reprobate of mind. The Jews approved of all this in the case of Pharaoh, but held that God could never abandon them on account of their sinful course. Paul’s argument is, that if they, the favored people, should pursue Pharaoh’s course, they might experience Pharaoh’s fate. They, also, hardening themselves, might be delivered over to hardness, for God is not limited by race, or by any limitation, but hardens whom he wills. He wills to harden those who harden themselves. Paul is not writing theology, but answering the arrogant pretensions of Jewish Pharisaism, and hence he asserts the Divine liberty. Had he been replying to those who have exaggerated this liberty into a purely arbitrary and tyrannical will, he would have brought out the opposite side of truth.

you said: You need to start arguing why you believe this and not just restating it.

Aaron37: Read the whole chapter of Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor 5:19; 2 Cor 5:21 Phil 3:9 1 John 2:2; John 1:12.

you said: This is EXACTLY what free will thinking dribbles down to…God isn’t really TRYING to save the lost…
which is a real way of saying…God doesn’t love you that much.

Aaron37: You have to understand that salvation is already done. It’s a done deal. ( Titus 2:11) The question is will each individual appropriate by faith what God has already provided by grace in order for Jesus’ payment to take effect in their lives?


#75

I find this to be completley off and unfair to reformed interpretation.
Before Moses had even asked the Pharoa God told moses: “I will harden his heart so that he does not let the people go”.

  1. This was from the first account. This also indicates that God hardened phaora for his own purpose. The arminian position which you endorse is that God is responding to Phaora but Paul is CLEARLY stating that pharoa is responding to God (IN ORDER THAT HIS PURPOSE IN ELECTION MIGHT STAND, BEFORE THEY DO ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD). You are saying it’s after they do bad.

  2. Paul raises the very argument that calvinists raise which is essentially how can god hold me culpable (blame me) if he made me this way? His does not answer in the arminain way: You did this to yourself…Instead it’s, We are clay and he is the potter and he does as he pleases (has mercy on whom he wants and HARDENS whom he wants).

  3. Paul tells us that God says to the Pharoa “I raised you up for this very purpose”.

So you clearly are not giving the reformed position the respect it’s due. Now most of us here don’t agree with reformed or calvinist theology. But we can at least respect it to actually ADDRESS it’s real issues it raises.

Your interpretation is only because you have a presupposition that God does not harden based on his own desire but based on mans as you stated: Second, God does not have mercy on whom He wishes (it depends on their efforts or desire to reconcile themselve to God).

You also stated:
God has done everything he is going to do to save people:
Then answer the following:

  1. Why then does he need to open the heart of a God worshipper?

PS. And you do fit into a premise: You reject actually no. 1 God does not want all men to be saved and that is why he is not actively seeking the lost but ONLY PROVIDED A WAY OF SALVATION. HE DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE, THEY SAVE THEMSELVES.


#76

Auggy.

Asking me if I believe no one is lost tells me you did not read my post "The balance of Grace and Faith, or you do not understand it. So, please read the post… it will change your life if you get revelation of it.


#77

Actually Aaron, i realized that you don’t promote that Idea so I edited it and a bit more out of it. Sometime as we think through this stuff, we make caricatures and given some time we figure them out.

I realize you don’t believe no one is lost so I gladly retract that statment.

The other thing is that we’re all over the place. We should create a thread where we can slowly thresh it out.

Aug


#78

Auggy.

What in the world do you mean I do not promote that idea? What do you mean you edited it? I believe every word of that post…what is the matter with you?


#79

Auggy.

I’m starting to think there is something wrong with you. Please don’t mis-represent me and tell me what I believe. I have never said that I don’t believe anyone is lost.


#80

Sorry Aaron, I did not make myself clear.

I mean you do not believe that NO ONE IS LOST.

In my post I stated that it seems to me that you believe no one is lost. After submitting, I realized you were not saying NO ONE IS LOST. So I retracted the statement. Thats all.

Aug