The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?


#81

Auggy.

Who are you to misrepresent my views and tell me what I believe? That is so arrogant. Read the balance of Grace and Faith. It will change your life if you get revelation of it.


#82

Aaron, I told you when I said I stated “it seems to me that you believe NO ONE IS LOST” is wrong. Thats why I said I retracted the statment.

I do not mean I misrepresent in the sense that I am telling people what you believe, I said that because someone could have read what I said and think you believe no one is lost. That is what I meant by mis-represent.

I will have to take some time to read your new post to digest it, so be patient there.

As for being arrogant, you simply are not hearing me that I was wrong for stating that. THAT IS WHY I RETRACTED IT.

Now I’ll go ahead and state why I sense that logically you would embrace that no one is lost.

Im gathering that you do not believe that people are not lost because God has found them already and is now offering them salvation? all they have to do is accept it.

If you believe that people are lost then how are they responsible for finding God?


#83

Can you provide the scripture that says God reconciled himself to man?

I see scriptures which say God reconciled the world UNTO HIMSELF. This implies God did not need to change but we did. I also would not that Col 1 states that God reconciling ALL THINGS unto himself.


#84

Great question! Sheep aren’t responsible for finding their way back to the shepherd. :slight_smile:


#85

Auggy.

You said : Im gathering that you do not believe that people are not lost because God has found them already and is now offering them salvation? all they have to do is accept it.

If you believe that people are lost then how are they responsible for finding God?

Aaron37: If you are not born again…you are lost and spiritually dead and separated from God. The object of Jesus’ death and resurrection was to free man from Satan’s dominion ( Hebrews 2:14) and make it possible for man to receive the life of God.( John 1:12) Each individual must appropriate by faith what God has already provided by grace in order for Jesus’ payment to take effect in their life.


#86

Auggy.

I’m tired of repeating myself. Please read The balance of Grace and Faith.


#87

I don’t care if you’re tired of repeating yourself. You’ve not answered the question.

Are you saying that the lost must find their way back to the shepherd or that the shpeherd must find his lost sheep?

If you say the shepherd must find them then why do you believe that God does not try anything to save people because he has already done what is necessary for their salvation.

You also failed to give the biblical support that God reconciled himself to us when scripture ACTUALLY reads that God reconciled the world UNTO HIMSELF.

Please provide it.

Aug


#88

Aaron,
I totally agree and it is here that we universalists and calvinists are sound. Arminian/LFW theology takes the love of God and begins to reduce it down from a super hero who sympathizes with man in his sin and saves them to a god who ONLY came to offers salvation but does not do anything more.
Obviously manifested in Aaron37’s post “God does not try to do anything” (which includes saving a sinner).

The same LFW thinkers also cannot explain why then God had to open Lydias heart so she could hear the gospel. **If God need not do anything more than why does he need to intervene with Mercy (open their ears, soften their hearts, break them of their arrogance)? **
FW subscribers often thus contradict and state, yes the sheep are lost and yes God is not looking for them because if God were looking for them and he cannot fail at his purpose (Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails), and most sheep end up lost forever, then God thus fails at his purpose. Then the lost sheep must find their way back to the shepherd and that is COMPLETELY unbiblical.
The good shepherd goes looking for his sheep. He knows they cannot find their way home because, to quote paul…
“While we were sinners we were controlled by our sinful nature”.

So LFW wants to say several things…Sinners today (post cross) are **not **controlled by their sinful nature - Jesus has set the world free -
Yet Paul says the god of this age (satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.

Point blank, they make no sense and that is why I they fail to persuade me of their beliefs.

I’m no determinst, but I can at least respect the calvinist (like Glenn Peoples) for being consistent. We may not agree nor like his ideas on God’s love but give the reformed credit, they don’t play games in order to manufacture some idea that the lost sheep have to find their way home.

Aug


#89

Auggy.

I do care. This is what I have been saying. If you don’t understand it…ask someone to help you…

If you are not born again…you are lost and spiritually dead and separated from God. The object of Jesus’ death and resurrection was to free man from Satan’s dominion ( Hebrews 2:14) and make it possible for man to receive the life of God.( John 1:12) Each individual must appropriate by faith what God has already provided by grace in order for Jesus’ payment to take effect in their life.

Sorry Aug, this discussion is repetitive and boring. Read the balance of Grace and Faith and this could of been avoided. sigh.


#90

It’s boring for you but terribly fun for me. I’m very amuzed that you continue to avoid the questions. Wonder why? Alluding to your topic of balance of grace and faith does not answer any of the questions posed. What is apparent is that many on this board have had the same experience as myself, that is you simply do not answer the the pertinent questions.

Of course if you won’t answer the questions by people of the commuinity then why would you answer anything on that thread as well. Why would it be anything different?

I’ll continue to discuss the issues here on this thread and if you can answer the questions posed then perhaps I’ll be persuaded to read the balance of grace and faith.

Aug


#91

Auggy.

Be persuaded? Like your doing me a favor reading it? It is for your benefit not mine…

When I said God does not “try” to do anything. It went straight over your head. Do you honestly think and believe that God Almighty “tries” to do anything? Think about it Auggy. God does or God does not…God does not “try”. God provided salvation to the world. He didn’t try to do it. Jesus said it was finished. Now the question is will each individual believe and receive it or doubt and do without it? God’s part is finished( Grace) Now you have to do your part( Faith).

God uses believers to preach the gospel to every creature, God uses radio to preach the gospel, God uses gospel tracts, God uses books to preach the gospel, God uses computers to preach the gospel , God uses people…believers to save the lost. God depends and operates through genuine born again believers to advance his kingdom on earth. Believers have the word of God, the Holy Spirit, angels, the power of God for signs and miracles to assist them in persuading the lost.

you said: Are you saying that the lost must find their way back to the shepherd or that the shpeherd must find his lost sheep?

Aaron37: The lost must respond by faith to the sheep preaching the gospel to them.


#92

Auggy.

Salvation works like this. I’m going to make this as simple as possible.

There is a man teaching Sunday school to 20 kids. He says" I will give this dollar bill to the first kid that comes up here and takes it". ( he is raising his arm up holding the dollar bill in his hand) All of the kids except one come up to the man and surround him and say “I want it… I want it” This continues for a few minutes with the man telling these kids he will give the dollar to the kid that takes it. All of the sudden the kid that did not come up originally…came up…pushed his way through the other kids that were standing around the man…started to climb up this man’s side and took the dollar from the man’s hand.

The man said " All of you wanted the dollar, but only one of you took it". That is the way salvation is. Faith is taking what God has already provided by grace. Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus. That is the balance of grace and faith.


#93

…and the other 19 kids burn in hell forever and ever and ever for not doing all that pushing and climbing and grabbing.

The better story is the teacher gives them each a buck and they ALL go out for ice cream. At least they would understand what a gift is and that they don’t have to work for it. End of lesson.


#94

Ran.

Its obvious this analogy went over you head. It is not about the pushing and climbing, but to take salvation by faith.


#95

Ran.

Many emphasize grace and others emphasize faith. But too few emphasize balancing grace and faith. It’s like sodium and chloride: Taken individually, both are poisons and can kill you. When mixed together, they become salt, which you must have to live. Grace without your positive response of faith won’t save you. And faith that isn’t a response to God’s grace will bring you into condemnation. But put your faith in what God has already done for you, and you have the victory that overcomes the world (1 John 5:4).


#96

Torturing all those kids forever for not knowing what they were doing. Really! Get with the program.

I hope you’re not using that for an actual lesson to kids. That’s a Horrible message for children.


#97

Ran.

Wow. I think we need to study a little more and talk a lot less. Torturing Kids? What are you talking about? Kids are not getting tortured. Even kids can understand the simplicity of this analogy. Grace without your positive response of faith won’t save you.

Ran, give me your understanding how someone accepts salvation. Do you think you accept salvation by getting sprinkled with water when you are a month old?


#98

Right, it’s simple. One goes to heaven. The rest burn in hell.

Most of your posts belong in the Soteriology forum.


#99

Ran.

No, the other 19 must follow taking salvation by faith just like everyone else.


#100

Only a few 1 out of 19 will make it. Anyway, they don’t ‘take it’ in your analogy - and so they are doomed to hell. Besides there was only one buck to grab in a room of 20. 19 of them were out of luck to begin with - are you sure you’re not a Calvinite?