The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?


#161

Okay, but my question had specifically to with the grammar of Koine Greek.


#162

The Greek of Jn 12:32 reads pantas <πάντας> = all… the parsing of which is: accusative case / plural / masculine, with the bulk use of pantas <πάντας> in the NT relative to people, BUT as the exceptions do show its use is not exclusive to man alone, as per… Mt 26:1 all words; Eph 3:9 all things; Jude 1:25 all ages.


#163

If that were what John meant, Aaron, why wouldn’t he have said so clearly? Why would, “I will draw all to me,” have such an obscure meaning?


#164

Yep Jesus did what he said, and it was done way long ago. Our position with God has been redeemed through the Christ.


#165

What does that say about the character of God, if He poured out His wrath upon His innocent Son?

What would you say about a human Father, who had a wicked son, but instead of punishing him, he punished his good, innocent son, and that satisfied his anger toward his guilty son?


#166

Jesus, like Israel’s former martyrs, understood the wrath of disobedience that stood over and against his nation. Jesus’ laying down of his own life ON BEHALF OF Israel was that of the sacrificial lamb (all atonement motifs) that not only covered a multitude of sins but fact completely took away all liability, guilt and condemnation that had hitherto stood firm against the covenant people.

4Macc 17:22 These, then, who have been consecrated for the sake of God, are honored, not only with this honor, but also by the fact that because of them our enemies did not rule over our nation, the tyrant was punished, and the homeland purified—they having become, as it were, a ransom for the sin of our nation. And through the blood of those devout ones and their death as an atoning sacrifice, divine Providence preserved Israel that previously had been mistreated.

As per the Gospel and Epistles… Jesus died for the sins of Israel and this redemption allowed for Gentile participation into the people of God. These firstfruit saints were they who sanctified the whole, i.e., participating in the outworking of Christ’s reconciliation of all. This then is not so much substitutionary atonement but more… the righteous suffering alongside the unrighteous (Isa 53:12), because of the unrighteous; and so in the end via punishment (chastisement Isa 53:5) came the deliverance of Israel, all Israel.

1Tim 2:5-6 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,…

So in this vein consider the following…

1Macc 6:44 So he gave his life to save his people and to win for himself an everlasting name.

2Macc 7:33, 37-38 And if our living Lord is angry for a little while, to rebuke and discipline us, he will again be reconciled with his own servants. … I, like my brothers, give up body and life for the laws of our ancestors, appealing to God to show mercy soon to our nation and by trials and plagues to make you confess that he alone is God, and through me and my brothers to bring to an end the wrath of the Almighty that has justly fallen on our whole nation.”

4Macc 1:11 All people, even their torturers, marveled at their courage and endurance, and they became the cause of the downfall of tyranny over their nation. By their endurance they conquered the tyrant, and thus their native land was purified through them.

4Macc 18:3-4 Therefore those who gave over their bodies in suffering for the sake of religion were not only admired by mortals, but also were deemed worthy to share in a divine inheritance. Because of them the nation gained peace, and by reviving observance of the law in the homeland they ravaged the enemy.


#167

The “more” is good, but I think it’s a serious error to consider Christ’s death as being substitutionary at all.


#168

Well… in terms of “Israel” (and certainly those texts above bear this out) THAT’S exactly what their atonement praxis was all about — a lamb for a householdJn 11:51-52; 2Cor 5:14b-15a etc.