The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?


#141

Aaron37,
You’ll get different answers depending on the paradigm they hold. The site EU believes one must come to Christ by faith and that there is no salvation outside of that. However, Ran and a few others hold a different view.


#142

How could you possibly have come up with this statement as a reply to my previous post?

Methinks you are demonstrating your propensity for ignoring requests for scripture to back your statements, as well as your inability (or refusal?) to understand what a person is saying.

Or am I missing something? Can you quote me somewhere as saying what you seem to think I believe?

Sonia


#143

Sonia.

That is why I asked you to answer these questions. Please answer them.

Sonia, Auggy & Ran.

Before I end this discussion I would like your thoughts on this scripture.

2 Cor 5:18 “But all things are from God, who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself ] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation that by the word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].”

1)Do you agree that the “us” Paul is referring to is himself and every believer in the Corinthian church?
2) Do you believe that this verse teaches that the reason they are reconciled is because they are in Christ by faith?
3) Do you agree according to this scripture that the ministry of reconciliation is that believers aim to bring others into harmony with God?
4) what do you believe this verse is teaching?


#144

I don’t hold a different view, I hold to a definition of faith that is life-changing even on this side is of the veil - but I extend it beyond death as the pure clarity of the resurrected in their understanding and glorification of God. the resurrected.

I have shown elsewhere that everyone is in Christ and no longer in Adam. But most people don’t see that - they still see people from ‘a worldly point of view.’ Them and us, saved and not saved, redeemed and not redeemed.

‘He died for all’ Many Christians don’t really believe that - and yet still call it ‘faith.’ Somehow that fact gets magically taken back or nullified at death or the resurrection - but the redeemed are always redeemed.

So I think many people’s ‘faith’ does not really honor God or Christ - and they think ‘it’ saves them.

It took perfection to redeem us - therefore, it is not an imperfect faith that saves us. But people will never repent of their faith no matter what it does to Christ or His Gospel. They don’t care - they just want to save their butt on their terms.


#145

Ran
Your view of faith is contrary to the bible and profits no one, but it will kill you and send you straight to hell. No where in the bible does it teach we are “in Christ” without the positive response of faith in Him. I know you hold dear to your Lutheran denomination traditions, but Luther himself taught Justification by faith…he did not teach your understanding how we are in Christ.

Btw, your view of faith contradicts Eph 2:8 were saved by grace through faith…and many other scriptures.


#146

Well, Paul taught that everyone is in Christ and I see that very clearly. So I don’t see people as being in Adam - which is the worldly point of view so many people have - including you, A37. And unlike Paul, you see THAT as somehow the superior view. Craziness.

But you are an example of what I am talking about - one who sends people to hell for not having YOUR faith.

I’d rather pursue the truth.


#147

Ran.

Your view of faith contradicts John 1:12; Eph 2:8; Romans 3:22; Romans 3:28; Romans 5:1;Galatians 3:22; Galatians 3:26 and many other scriptures. Ran, you preach a gospel contrary to the bible. There are consequences to preaching a gospel contrary to the bible ( Galatians 1:8-9) you are accursed.


#148

Aaron37. In my leadership role may I remind you of a post you made in the ‘I’m Outta Here Thread’…

You can’t have it both ways.


#149

I take it you do not have scripture that plainly states that God needed to reconcile Himself to the world?

Well, I will respond to your post–and then I will refrain from any further ‘discussion’ with you. (Unless a drastic change occurs in your ability to interact with people and the Scriptures.)

Seems to me you **didn’t **like Ran’s thoughts … :wink:

As the letter is from Paul and Timothy, I’d say Paul was specifically refering to the two of them and the believers in the Corinthian church, and I would think he would have also been including all believers in the thought as well.

This specific verse teaches absolutely nothing about faith.

You could sort of say that, but it’s not the focus of this verse. The definition of the ministry of reconciliation comes in the following verses. This verse merely states that God has done it and has given the ministry of it to those in Christ.

You can’t gather much from this verse, if you strip it from it’s context.

The first part is a carryover of the previously expressed thought, which is that everyone who is in Christ is a new creature–‘all things have become new’–and the first part of vs 18 affirms that God is the one who is responsible for the ‘newness.’

The NIV puts it so: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ

It is God who has done the reconciling of “us” to himself and the making new of the one who is in Christ.

The second half of the verse says: “and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation”

This simply states that God has given us the “ministry” or “service” of reconciliation. This is the work we are given to do, and this work is explained further in the following verses.

Sonia


#150

This is a clear violation of board rules:

"3) No disrespectful, vulgar or inflammatory comments about any person or any institution*

*For example, we may debate about the validity or invalidity of any point of doctrine in Arminianism, Calvinism, Catholicism, Unitarianism, Judaism, and Islam. But in this board we must avoid disrespectful or negative comments about Arminianists, Calvinists, Catholics, Unitarians, Jews, Muslims and the schools of Arminianism, Calvinism, Catholicism, Unitarianism, Judaism, and Islam."

We’ve been addressing everybody that has violated this rule. We can no longer tolerate this without temporary bans for violation.

This board isn’t the place to pronounce biblical condemnations of other people, regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of the condemnation.

We understand that others have violated the policy against you, and we’ve addressed that with the respective individuals.

Please review the board rules:

[Forum Rules and Policies)


#151

Jim.
Are you kidding me? Ran is pushing a false gospel contrary to the bible and your not allowed to refute it? Does not the bible say you are accursed if you preach a gospel contrary to what Paul preached? How is it disrespectful rebuking someone from the bible? Give me a break Jim. What a joke. This is not my personal opinion…its what God has said in His word.


#152

Sonia & Auggy.

  1. I believe in the biblical doctrine being justified by faith. Do you believe this?
  2. If we are justified by faith…we are reconciled by faith. If not, why not?

#153

I believe that Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. 1 Tim 4

You mean THAT faith? Hell, you don’t even believe it! It’s seems like you have to ignore and dis-believe much of the Gospel to be justified. Is that how it works?

Honesty, I burst out laughing when I read your reply… boy o boy. What’s next? Rebuking Paul for preaching a false Gospel? Rebuking the Holy Spirit for inspiring Paul to write that? God lied? How far do you want to go with it to justify YOUR faith while condemning another’s?


#154

Ran.

No, the bible never says to to put your faith in Jesus as the Savior of all men. The bible does say believe in Jesus alone and you will have everlasting life.


#155

I never said anything remotely close to saying that you may not refute Ran’s doctrines or any other doctrine of any other member. You may certainly refute the doctrines. But when you cross that line and rebuke/condemn a member, than you may m not do that in the forum.

And I said that regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of the rebuke/condemnation, you may not do that in this forum. For example, I strongly disagree with many of Ran’s teachings. However, you need to obey the rules of this forum if you want to continue to participate in this forum. This isn’t a preaching forum. And this isn’t a forum for pronouncing biblical condemnations. It’s more like an academic setting. I tolerate many things here that I wouldn’t tolerate in my church.

People may choose to visit an environment where nobody gets rebuked from the Bible. This is one of those places.

When I evangelize, I don’t rebuke people from the Bible. I reserve biblical rebukes for fellow Christians, especially those in church leadership

There are other forums where people can pronounce biblical condemnations to one another. This isn’t one of them.

I’m not kidding you in the least.


#156

Jim.

If Apostle Paul were alive he would rebuke you for rebuking me. What does GOD say in 2 Timothy 4:2 Mr Goetz?

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, REBUKE, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Ran, to my knowledge considers himself to be a believer… So rebuking Ran’s unbiblical gospel from the bible is what we are told to do,as believers, Mr Goetz.


#157

It is not ‘unbiblical’ to put one’s faith on Christ, the savior of all men. To rebuke that faith means to toss it down and spit on it (rebuking is not refuting).

To refute it, one would have to prove that Christ did not redeem (and save) all men from death. That can’t be done. No one has ever dis-proven THAT salvation. ALL the dead are raised in Christ.

So the argument turns to ‘THAT salvation is not salvation’ - as though sin and death were not Siamese twins so intertwined that the destruction of one is the destruction of the other. The resurrection IS salvation.

So this remains absolutely true: “Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.” 1 Tim 4

The EVENTS themselves (beginning with the Cross and culminating in the universal confession of Christ) speak much louder than any scripture (taken out the context of those events) and used to disprove that Christ is the Savior of all men.

The Gospel itself speaks in terms of accomplishments and events, not some nebulous, long-winded mush. Beginning with: “Christ took away your sins. He saved you. He will raise you and fix you.” To expect a person to believe the truth - one FIRST must tell them the truth. And the enemy is always in the wings…“Did God really take away their sins?”

Most people can’t present a Gospel that is much more than an opinion or theory: “This might be true IF…”


#158

Ran.

No, the bible never says to to put your faith in Jesus as the Savior of all men. The bible does say believe in Jesus alone and you will have everlasting life.


#159

I have a question. I have heard that Pantos cannot refer to anything but humans, but the word is used in Jude 1:25 to refer to all ages, and in Matthew 26:1 to refer to all of Christ’s sayings. It is an admittedly uncommon usage, but it IS POSSIBLE that Aaron37 is correct here, yes? Moreover, Christ DID take on all the wrath of God with His death, yes? So therefore Aaron37 COULD be right.


#160

G’day James… along a similar vein have a look at my last paragraph below (you may need to expand the post)