The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does God ever Lie?

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

Is there a contradiction here?

And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.” (1 Kings 22:19-24.)

in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began (Titus 1:2.)

I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. (1 John 2:21.)

Does God ever lie?

#2

I don’t think God does lie. However, I see no reason to say that God cannot use liars or lying spirits to further his goals. Which to me is what the above passage from 1 Kings is suggesting. He may allow someone to lie and allow others to believe the lie. But no, God does not himself lie. Perhaps I just have a poor memory (seriously possible) but I cannot recall anywhere in scripture where God does indeed himself lie. Sure there are times where he decided against doing something he had planned on, but that is far from a lie.

I am not dogmatic on this issue but I just don’t see it.

#3

I do not believe he lies like humans do. I.e., he won’t tell you something to harm you, or get something (since he needs nothing).

I do believe that he is, and loves being, cryptic, though. Which may seem like a lie at times. I’m also confident that I’ve seen instances where something was made obtuse, obfuscated, simplified, exaggerated, etc., to the point where it could look like a lie.

#4

Why?

#5

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

#6

Do you mean you’ve personally seen such instances in your own life?

#7

Therefore, He will send them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false…
I’m often frustrated with the Bible. To be honest with you, I can totally understand why people say there are contradictions in the Bible. Ultimately, I just have to accept that His ways are not my ways, but higher, and that secret things belong to Him.
If someone else did what the LORD did in Thessalonians, I’d be pissed and say that they WERE lying and now just trying tone it down as “factual manipulation” or something. But, “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?” No, not me, not anymore. He cannot lie, but He can send strong delusion. Go figure :confused:

#8

Great question. Michael Heiser covers this in a couple of his blog posts on his Naked Bible blog. The first one has the exact same name as this thread, funny enough:

michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB … s-god-lie/

There’s a follow up post to that too.

Basically his point is that God does not lie, but does USE deception, and I agree with him. I’d put it this way: he makes it so that the truth could be known if one looked into the matter far enough, but is hidden relatively well from those not seeking the truth, or those who would only do harm with the truth.

For instance, God did not request (through Moses) that the Israelites be set free. He simply requested that they be able to worship in the desert for three days. Of course, the part God conveniently left out is that they wouldn’t be coming back after that (whoops!) Should God have included that fact to avoid our modern interpretation of lying?

Well, a similar question could be asked: should Christians, when protecting Jews from the Nazis, have answered that they were indeed hiding them in order to avoid becoming ‘liars’? That would be a travesty of true justice, wouldn’t it? As if they were more interested in some self-righteous notion of their own holiness above the tender hearts and lives of those under their care.

In the same way, God employs trickery throughout the bible. The whole life of Jacob from birth to death employs trickery and deceit, some approved by God, some not, but all used by Him for the maximal good.

In fact, Paul talks about the secret mystery of God hidden throughout the ages. Now there’s a HUGE amount of information left out of the picture, but arguably for good reason, for it seemed to have taken Satan for a spin. So the entire redemptive theme is one big practice in ‘deception,’ so to speak. One could suggest that this is why UR has been hidden from the church for so long, too.

As for Micaiah, I can’t remember where Heiser talks about this, but he makes a great point on this passage which has always puzzled me. God was probably not requesting a deceptive spirit. He was simply forseeing that these people were going to be deceived and believe what they wanted to, but he determined how exactly that would come about.

#9

As he grew older, wasn’t he more of a victim of trickery and deceit (being deceived by his uncle, and then by his sons, in much the same way he had deceived his father when he was younger)?

So what is the difference between lying and using deception?

I read the blog post, and some of the replies, and I don’t see where the difference is spelled out.

What do you see as the difference?

P.S. How would I find Heiser’s follow up blog post?

#10

When he was very old, yes. But my point was not that it was Jacob responsible for all the deception. I was just pointing out a big sampling of it in scripture. Remember that when his boys tricked him, it ended up for the good of the whole family and Egypt as a whole as well.

But yeah - his uncle did trick him, but he tricked him right back by getting his goats (literally :laughing:)

Yeah sorry, I was on my phone so that was kinda tough to link both. Here ya go:

michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible … deception/

“Using” deception is much different than lying. It’s the difference between telling an untruth and simply allowing someone to have a misconception (which is ultimately their own fault).

#11

Thank you.

#12

There are no shortage of fallen angels and evil spirits who love deception and revel in the art of it. All God must do to “send a lying spirit” is to allow one of these beings to do what they delight in.

Growing up, my pastor used to say that God never lies, that He is unable to lie, because if he did lie, it would become truth. Think about it, if he created the universe by simply speaking it, then whatever he says must come to pass.

Just my thoughts anyways. Have a good evening and God bless! :slight_smile:

#13

I don’t think that God lies though He has carefully put plans to be able to go about his trusted people.

But then again, He could be using those people who are equipped with lying to further test people and be successful with his goals, which I think is negligible at this point.

In the idea of having someone lie in his behalf can also be another step to test others.