Does God have two wills?

[SLJ]

Craig,
You might find this article interesting in terms of better understanding that Calvinist reasoning: calvinistcorner.com/god-desires-all-saved I think the author does a good job of articulating that viewpoint. I find the reasoning convoluted, and I guess the author realizes that as well since he closes with, “God is not simplistic. He has a divine plan that we must truly seek to fathom if we are to rightly understand His word.”

Basically the argument is that God’s desires are not always achieved, ie: God desires people to be righteous, but they choose to sin, etc. So while God does not cause people to sin or tempt them, He “makes room” in His plan for man’s sin, and “hardens” people, and hides the truth from people by speaking in parables, so that He can use the sinfulness of men to achieve His purposes. So while the “desire” of God for the individual to be righteous may be thwarted, it all fits into His purpose. The overarching plan of God which will not be thwarted is the salvation of the elect and the demonstration of His character (in all it’s aspects) and His glory.

So the question to discuss, I guess, is what really is the plan of God? Is it only the salvation of an elect, or does it go beyond that? Is it really God’s desire to save all, or is that just an idle “wish” that is subservient to His real plan? I would argue that it is the salvation of an elect in this age, and the salvation of all in the coming ages.

I think one of the (several) flaws in the author’s argument – that God’s desires are not always met – is a failure to distinguish between what God desires us to do, and what God desires Himself to do. He argues that man does not always carry out God’s desire. And my answer is that God always does what He desires. Within a Calvinist framework, salvation is the providence of God. Christ died to save the elect – those who God desires to save – and He will achieve His purpose. God’s desire for all people to be saved is a goal that lies within God’s domain of action, not man’s, because salvation is of God, not of the will of man.

The author is treating this passage (I Tim 2:4) as if it said, “God desired that everyone would not choose sin.” (but they did, so He’s going to avail himself of this opportunity to demonstrate His justice and wrath – and He wanted them to and planned for them to – but He didn’t force them to.) Or perhaps as: “God wishes they didn’t have to go to Hell” (but they do have to for the greater purposes of the demonstration of the horribleness of sin and the righteous anger of God against sinners.)

So, as I said above, I’d think the primary question would be to determine the plan of God according to the scriptures.

Sonia

[Craig]

Craig,
You might find this article interesting in terms of better understanding that Calvinist reasoning: calvinistcorner.com/god-desires-all-saved I think the author does a good job of articulating that viewpoint. I find the reasoning convoluted, and I guess the author realizes that as well since he closes with, “God is not simplistic. He has a divine plan that we must truly seek to fathom if we are to rightly understand His word.”

Basically the argument is that God’s desires are not always achieved, ie: God desires people to be righteous, but they choose to sin, etc. So while God does not cause people to sin or tempt them, He “makes room” in His plan for man’s sin, and “hardens” people, and hides the truth from people by speaking in parables, so that He can use the sinfulness of men to achieve His purposes. So while the “desire” of God for the individual to be righteous may be thwarted, it all fits into His purpose. The overarching plan of God which will not be thwarted is the salvation of the elect and the demonstration of His character (in all it’s aspects) and His glory.

So the question to discuss, I guess, is what really is the plan of God? Is it only the salvation of an elect, or does it go beyond that? Is it really God’s desire to save all, or is that just an idle “wish” that is subservient to His real plan? I would argue that it is the salvation of an elect in this age, and the salvation of all in the coming ages.

I think one of the (several) flaws in the author’s argument – that God’s desires are not always met – is a failure to distinguish between what God desires us to do, and what God desires Himself to do. He argues that man does not always carry out God’s desire. And my answer is that God always does what He desires. Within a Calvinist framework, salvation is the providence of God. Christ died to save the elect – those who God desires to save – and He will achieve His purpose. God’s desire for all people to be saved is a goal that lies within God’s domain of action, not man’s, because salvation is of God, not of the will of man.

The author is treating this passage (I Tim 2:4) as if it said, “God desired that everyone would not choose sin.” (but they did, so He’s going to avail himself of this opportunity to demonstrate His justice and wrath – and He wanted them to and planned for them to – but He didn’t force them to.) Or perhaps as: “God wishes they didn’t have to go to Hell” (but they do have to for the greater purposes of the demonstration of the horribleness of sin and the righteous anger of God against sinners.)

So, as I said above, I’d think the primary question would be to determine the plan of God according to the scriptures.

Sonia

Thanks very much Sonia for the link. It does clearly present the viewpoint that I am comparing with UR.
Your analysis of the issue and the key question involved is very helpful. Some good food for me to chew on.
I can see how it does allow them to hold together Talbott’s three propositions.
I can see that what God desires (allows, permits, decrees, has ordained) in one sense, at the present time, can be different to what he desires (has commanded us, wants us to be like and do) in another sense. In UR, it seems that ultimately these two desires (or wills) will be one - God has ultimately planned to achieve all that He desires. In contrast, in Calvinism, these two desires will always conflict.
So, as you say, the questions are
What is God’s plan? Is it possible for God’s plan to actually ultimately fulfill all his desires? Is it possible for all His desires - for all to be saved AND His desire to show His character - His wrath, justice, power, and glory - to all be fulfilled? Do these desires need to be contradictory so that some desires of God can never be fulfilled? What does the bible really say?

[TotalVictory]

Hi Craig…
Have not read this thread thoroughly but wonder if this might offer some additional ideas…

It’s an essay I shared titled “On the Legitimacy of Ascribing certain Evils to God”

[On The Legitimacy of Ascribing Certain Evils to God)

Interesting discussion follows…

Blessings and Happy New Year!

Bobx3

[JeffA]

Here’s a different take on it all from the God’s Kingdom Ministry web site gods-kingdom-ministries.org/ … pter11.cfm …

These distinct realities are also described by two other Greek words denoting God’s will (desire) and God’s overall plan, or blueprint for history.

God’s Will (Thelema) and God’s Plan (Boulema)

The will of God is in a way subordinate to His plan, or the blueprint of history. The Greek words to describe each in the New Testament are thelema (“will”) and boulema (“plan”).

The word thelema is used about 60 times in the New Testament. It is usually translated “will.” It denotes the will in the sense of the desire or wish. However, the word boulema refers to one’s resolve. It goes beyond a mere desire. It denotes the actual plan, the intention, or the outworking of the will. It is only used twice in the New Testament, but in both cases we can note its distinction from thelema.

For example, in Acts 27:43 Paul was being taken prisoner to Rome. A storm had arisen, and the ship was grounded on a reef. The soldiers wanted to kill the prisoners in order to prevent them from escaping.

43 But the centurion, wanting to bring Paul safely through, kept them from their intention [boulema], and commanded that those who could swim should jump overboard first and get to land. 

Fortunately for Paul, the Centurion had more than a willing desire to save Paul. He also had the power to command and to carry out his plan (boulema). This indicated more than a mere desire to save Paul’s life. He carried it out as part of his plan. The second passage where boulema is used is much clearer, for we already quoted it in Romans 9:19, in regard to Pharaoh:

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (boulema, 'plan, or intention')?"

You see, the will (desire) of God was expressed in Moses’ statement: “Let My people go.” Pharaoh was able to resist God’s thelema will, or desire. The story of Pharaoh makes that obvious. But there was a boulema plan, or intention, that Pharaoh knew nothing about, and this he could not resist, for this was in the mind of God, not in the will of man. It was bound up in the sovereignty of God, not in the authority of man. And this plan is perfectly expressed in verse 17, where Paul quotes from Exodus 9:16 below:

16 But, indeed, for this cause I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power, and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

It was God’s will that Pharaoh let Israel go. But it was in God’s plan that Pharaoh should resist God’s will. Thus, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart in order to carry out that plan. This may seem like a terrible contradiction. Why would God create His own opposition and harden Pharaoh’s heart, causing him to resist the will of God? It is no more contradictory than with the two covenants. The Abrahamic covenant gave men the inheritance by unconditional promise, while the Mosaic covenant made it conditional. This is not contradictory, but rather a paradox, as we saw in chapter eight.

As a consequence, man is judged only on the level of his obedience to the thelema of God, for this is the level of his authority. God takes full responsibility for that which He does according to His boulema plan. Yet because the boulema of God is a primal force which directly determines man’s ability and desire to obey God’s thelema, God holds himself ultimately responsible and liable for the actions and salvation of His creation. That is one reason why He came to pay the penalty for sin Himself

[auggybendoggy]

Sonia,
good points. It seems like Calvinists simply don’t shoot straight. Under this reformed rubric, it seems God does desire people to sin - in a decreeing sense. I didn’t see this in the author’s article. His denial that God makes people sin only makes his position incoherent.

I feel a good calvinist will say God does make people sin. He not only decrees it, he actually is the one who HARDENS them so that they disobey his commands. What Calvinists don’t like to admit is that if God did not harden them, they would obey - something that does not bode well with total depravity. They act as if “leaving them to their sin” is the answer for ECT.

Here’s a thought: If God does not harden, Calvinists seem to argue that the default position of humans is to reject God (via total depravity). But why would that be? If God didn’t harden the pharoah, then he would have obeyed. And if the Pharoah obeyes, then guess what??? He’s actually softening him. Calvinists are quick (and eloquent) at pointing out the fact that for one not to be hardened is to be softened - that is those whom he does does not soften he actually hardens. They simply don’t like to see it the other way around.

[AaronK]

I haven’t read all the comments in this feed, I just thought I’d comment to the original question and share a link to how I currently view “the two wills of God”. For quite some time I denied that God could possibly have two wills as it didn’t make any sense to me. How could God desire one thing but decree another? However, through some study and meditation I have come to a new understanding of this issue…

The verse that tipped that scales for me to spend more time thinking about this was Romans 11:32:
“For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”

God shuts up all in disobedience? He shuts us up in disobedience to/against what… His commands? He binds us to disobey what He desires of us?

My thoughts on this are found here:
aaronkreider.wordpress.com/2010/04/25/two-wills-in-god/

[Craig]

Total Victory, Jeff A, Auggybendoggy and Aaron K,
Thanks very much for all the great material you have provided in these last four replies. There is a lot to think over! You are all helping me to appreciate some of the complexities of the issues involved as I think and pray about the way forward.
I really liked your illustration Aaron concerning the pain of pregnancy and the joy of birth.
Thanks everyone.