Hi Everyone. I have been lurking for a few weeks and finding the discussions very interesting as I think through the issues of UR. Thank you.
I have been wondering about a question that I haven’t seen discussed yet - sorry if I have missed it.
With regard to the idea that God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9) some Calvinists just admit that this is not true and they don’t read these verses in that way. They say He only loves the elect and wants to save the elect.
At the church I go to, most people seem to be fairly Calvinistic, but some (including the minister/senior pastor) seem to believe that God does really desire everyone to be saved, but explain election of only some to eternal life by saying that God has two wills:
1 His “will of desire”. What He would like to happen.
2 His “will of decree”. What He has determined will actually happen.
These two wills may be in conflict, so that sometimes only number 2 happens.
So they say that just like God tells me how I should live in this life and desires me to never sin (will of desire), for His own good and wise reasons He allows me to still sin and displease Him and will not make me perfect until the next life. So sometimes He allows things to go against his “will of desire” (sometimes also called “will of precept”) because He has some higher purpose to achieve through His “will of decree”.
This means that they can still believe that God wants all people to be saved (will of desire), but this is overtaken by greater purposes that God has, which He will achieve through only saving some to eternal life (election) and damning others to eternal hell.
Does anyone have any comments on this line of reasoning, using the idea of God having two wills?
Thanks for your help.
So God desires all people to be saved…
By Calvinistic doctrine, God selects who he’s going to save.
But he doesn’t select all to be saved.
Despite desiring all to be saved.
…what?
If there is such a greater purpose they speak of, we have not a whiff of it. And I don’t know if I want to know it. The Problem of Evil persists.
Most Calvinists I met just admit God doesn’t want all to be saved. Makes me wonder how they justify having kids.
God has only one desire. God’s desire is to reconcile creation back to a Genesis 1 and 2 state of existence, Craig. God does not elect certain individuals for reconciliation and leave others in spiritual death. He made provision for everyone to receive this reconciliation without being a respecter of persons. Everyone has the opportunity to receive this reconciliation through Christ by faith, but it is ultimately up to you. God elected the body of Christ before the foundation of the world and you become apart of that election when you put your faith in Christ.
Hi Birdoftheegg,
As far as I can tell, this is what they are saying. It’s like God really wants to go to the birthday party, but he can’t because it is more important that he goes to the funeral. Sometimes, it is not possible to do everything that you desire to do, even if you are God.
Rom 9:22,23 is mentioned in this context. God’s purpose is to show his character - things like wrath, hatred of sin, power, and justice that apparently couldn’t be adequately shown without an eternal hell.
Same here. But some in my church use this other line of reasoning, including my Pastor. I am presently discussing the issue of UR with him (much to his concern).
I disagree.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 12 …if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
Matthew: 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 "He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Matthew 19:16 "And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well.** Even the demons believe—and shudder!** 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
I could go on.
Whoever told you “just believe” lied to you.
Then they should not say God desires all to be saved. Obviously he cares about showing off more (wtf?).
I did not interpret Rom 9 to mean God’s sole purpose is to show his wrath. Rather, God shows his wrath and does what he does for a purpose, and the purpose is ultimately rooted in love, always.
In fact, Romans 9 is devoted to “don’t tell me what to do”. ET’s love telling God how his justice demands eternal torture, even though that’s not in the book.
What in the world are you disagreeing about? How do all these verses have anything to do with what I said?
These verses indicate that people who do, or do not do, various things, even if they believe, will not inherit the kingdom of God. You do not become part of the elect just by belief. That is clearly stated. Faith without works is dead.
This has nothing to do with salvation. But you’re confusing election with salvation. Salvation is free, election is not “many are called, but few are chosen”.
Your faith gets you in the kingdom of God but you must stay rooted and grounded in the faith and not be moved away from the truth of the gospel or you can lose your salvation.
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Romans 8:33
33 Who shall bring a charge against **God’s elect? **
1 Thess 1:4
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
Titus 1:1
Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, **according to the faith of God’s elect **and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness.
Eph 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Hi Craig, welcome.
Interesting. You don’t Go to Bethlehem Baptist, do you? Just wondering because I use to go there and John piper wrote this same concept of the two wills of God, a very interesting way to defend calvinism, though I found it unconvincing. it sort of makes God’ s mind contradictory.
Yes. Pretty serious requirement, isn’t it? Doesn’t sound like the free gift he spoke of in other places.
Doesn’t have much to do with losing salvation, though. Do you have a verse confirming the action of LOSS of your SALVATION?
This says nothing on who is the elect; this speaks only about the power of the elect. Paul repeatedly addresses himself to churches of saints. Further, he’s highly critical of every little mistake they do. He warns that if they do not deliver, they’ll lose their inheritance. Why do you automatically assume you’re one of the elect and pin all those advantages onto yourself?
Are you aware of Paul partaking in adultery or slander or lies or anything after his conversion? Did Paul not consistently express love and humility? Do you approach Paul? Do I approach Paul? I definitely don’t.
Are you kidding me? All of these verses are addressed to believers about believers. I have had enough of this nonsense. Good night.
Jacob was chosen by God before he was born, not when he put his faith in Christ. He was chosen because God wanted Jacob, not because Jacob wanted God. The will of God was the decisive factor, not the will of Jacob. All this shows, quite decisively, that salvation is by grace alone. God will save all those whom he chooses to save, and (thanks be to God!) Christ came to save the world.
Hi Michael, Thanks for the welcome.
No, I don’t go to Bethlehem Baptist, but John Piper is certainly extremely highly regarded from where I come from, and so this could explain the popularity of the concept.
I can understand it to a certain extent, but at this stage, I am thinking that UR is a better explanation. With UR, although there are things happening now that God is displeased with, He will ultimately achieve His desire. With my church’s teaching His desire seems to be forever thwarted or frustrated, and this doesn’t match up as well with the overall picture of God that I see in the bible.
God’s will was that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
This is not an individual election but the election of the body of Christ. This is the plan of redemption of man not individuals. salvation is by grace through faith. God does not choose to save anyone but He made provision for the world to be saved. 
You poor Arminians get in such a tangle when you insist on elevating man’s will above God’s.
Jesus said, “You have not chosen me. I have chosen you.” “All that the Father gives me will come to me.” “My sheep know my voice.”
When it came to a battle of wills, when push came to shove, who won: God or Pharaoh? God or Jonah? God or Israel? God or the Devil himself?
When God called Saul/Paul, when did He give him the opportunity to make his decision for Christ and invite him into his heart as Lord and personal savior? Nope. God simply told Saul where to go and what to do. End of discussion. How remiss of God! How uncouth. Fancy treading on Saul’s toes.
Jesus was referring to their calling as being Apostles not choosing them for salvation. God made the provision for salvation for anyone who wants to partake of it by faith. He is not a respecter of persons. 
Talbott’s set of three inconsistent propositions has been discussed many times on this forum:
1 God desires everyone to be saved
2 God has the power to achieve His desire
3 Many people will not be saved
It is often stated that Calvinists deny #1. Arminians deny #2. Universalists deny #3.
The “Calvinists” I am relating to would say that they are not really denying #1, so they believe all three are true. They achieve this through the doctrine of the two wills stated above.
Thank you everyone for all your comments. From your comments so far, some problems I could discuss with them include:
It makes God’s mind contradictory
It leaves God unable to achieve His desires, thwarted in His plans
The problem of evil persists
Risky to have children
God only has one desire, and no conflicting desires are stronger than this
God is love, and difficult to see how showing eternal wrath is consistent with this
God’s reconciliation extends to every person, not just some
Does anyone else have any more comments before I discuss this more with my friends?
Thank you.
No time to discuss main point at the moment, as about to rush out of the door, but
Bird: I’m really enjoying having you here. I like the way your trying to honestly reason things out and not just accept the status quo.
Revival: Bird is new here and in the intros, expressed being an agnostic who is deciding about Christianity. So, do you maybe want to extend some grace to them and not get too exasperated?
You’re exactly right, sister. Will do.
This part especially gets me. When I was an evangelical, I was really struggling with this idea (I’m a woman who wants 11 kids). I remember confronting some Christian on the subject, and he told me something akin to “it’s not my problem”.
Thank you.
So who are the verses I have given you are addressed to?
If they’re addressed to believers, then why? According to you, the believers are already the elect, just by believing.
If to nonbelievers, why? They’re already damned to eternal torture for not believing, and they won’t believe Paul, anyway.
Paul didn’t chose anything. He literally had line shine down to him and a voice speak to him. Paul consistently stated that his belief is not his own.
So, it seems God can definitely choose. So either God refuses to do so for others for some other reason, or the Calvinists are right.