The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does God Test Faith (and Why)?

I understand why the spirit of the law is more important than the letter, and why one’s heart is more important than their outward actions, but I don’t understand why the God of the New Testament seems to value faith so highly.

Why is what a person believes important to God?

Some Christians say (and I think even C.S. Lewis said) that if miracles happened every day, there’d be no need for faith.

But why would that be a bad thing?

Do children love their parents any less because they know for a fact that they’re their parents?

Would you parents love your children any more if you weren’t really sure they were your children?

Why does God hide Himself, and why does He value faith?

Does He test (or try) an individual’s faith (by limiting the evidence of His existence, or by giving them reason to doubt)?

If so, why?

The three Christian virtues are suppose to be faith, hope, and love.

I can see the value of love, but what’s the deal with faith?

If you define faith as trust I believe faith is huge. I certainly want my children to trust me because I think I know what is best for them. What if I “knew” what was best for them?

If you define faith as trust, wouldn’t you have to disagree with C.S. Lewis when he said that if miracles happen every day, there’d be no need for faith?

Your daily, visible presence with your children doesn’t remove the need for them to trust you, does it?

This is an excellent question, Michael, and I don’t know the answer – but I’ll muse a bit and maybe find something good . . .

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. So is faith maybe in some measure a window for us into the spiritual world? Without faith, it’s impossible to please God, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. It makes sense to me that the reward for the seeker would be to find the thing/person sought.

“This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent” (Jesus). Jesus is “the true bread who came down from heaven that a man may eat thereof and not die.” “For my flesh is meat indeed and My blood is drink indeed. The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.” (All in John 6, somewhere.)

Back in the Garden there was the Tree of Life, free to be chosen. We could have eaten from it, but we didn’t. Why? It symbolizes Jesus, I think. If you eat of it, you will have eternal life (the sort of life that comes from the Eternal – God) And knowing God IS eternal life. If you eat from the TOL, you’ll know God. And knowing God, you’ll have the mind of Christ and know all things (perhaps not at once, but as you need them). But why eat from the TOKOGE, then ? You will be as God (they were already like God) and know good and evil (for ourselves? without knowing through that interface with God, in our spirits? independently know? is that what appealed?)

Things not seen – that sounds like the spiritual world which we, having died to that world on eating from the TOKOGE, cannot see or sense. But when we eat from the TOL, we begin to live again to the spiritual world – God’s world. But it’s a seed. The Kingdom of God is like a seed, and it has to be planted in good ground. And a seed has to fall into the earth and die before it can grow and bear fruit.

Jesus is the Word, and He did “fall into the earth and die.” But the fruit of a seed is more seeds, which, in order to live must also first die. He will see His seed; He will prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. Are we His seed? Things don’t ALWAYS symbolize the same thing. However I think maybe in this case, maybe we are. And if we are His seed, we must die to this world as He did. And that means we need to learn to live that God kind of life (eternal life).

Jesus’ disciples asked Him something about how to do the things He did (I think it was the fig tree incident) and He said “Have faith in God.” But I’ve heard that maybe that would be better translated differently – as “Have the faith OF God.” Have the sort of faith God has – the God kind of life and the God kind of faith. Is this faith somehow connected to eating from the TOL as opposed to the TOKOGE? Taking into ourselves (I hate to put it the way Jesus did, you know?) the Son of God?

So the faith is necessary to please God because that’s His goal for us – to learn to live by His life, to discern things (more and more) in the spirit realm, to have His kind of faith, KNOWING the spirit realm, knowing the power He’s invested in us (greater works than these shall you do because I go to My Father).

As for His not manifesting Himself to us all the time, I have a kind of picture of that which I like. You know how adults and older children will play peek-a-boo with the baby? It’s so delightful to see Silas’ little baby face giggle and gurgle when you uncover your face or pop back in from behind the cushion or even the next room. But the game has a serious side. Silas doesn’t know that you still exist if he can’t see you. He has to learn this, because he’s not always going to see you. Besides, it’s just a fact of existence which he should know for the sake of knowing. There are things in the world besides himself, and they exist whether or not he can see or touch them at the moment. It’s part of growing up.

I wonder if that’s part of God trying/testing our faith. It’s not so much to see whether we’ll stand strong. He knows He’ll pick us up if we need it. It’s more playing peek-a-boo. We need to know that He’s there and that He’s good even if we can’t see Him at the moment. We need to have that God kind of faith and live by that God kind of life – not merely by our senses. Besides, this world of material things is good, but it isn’t all there is. And maybe it’s not the best interface in which to interact with Him.

We need to learn to live in a whole new world in which we have (like baby Silas) very limited functionality at present. I believe that physical world (redeemed) is very good and will always be part of our lives, but there’s more, and we need to learn to swim or fly or whatever analogy you like, in the spirit world now. So maybe the testing/trying is to help us learn? To strengthen our spirit “muscles,” as a baby strengthens his legs as he learns to pull himself up, and then finally begins to take his first steps.

Sight is the currency of this world. Sure, there are other senses, but sight is pretty much king, if you’ve got it. Perhaps faith is the “sight” of the spirit world. God’s testing our faith is like your testing your little girl’s ability to keep her bicycle upright by letting go of the handlebars as you run alongside. Just kind of stream-of-consciousness. Thanks for the nudge, Brother. :smiley:

This is something I am really struggling with, Michael. I can sort of understand faith’s importance, if God were more obvious. But in a world with a multitude of various contradictory religions and a bible that isn’t exactly easy to understand, I’m not sure why he puts such a premium on faith. On the one hand, I do agree that the heaven’s declare the glory of god, but on the other, that doesn’t make it so clear to me what particular truth is so obvious. As one who has struggled with doubt my entire adult life, I’m not sure what god is getting at.

I’m right there with ya Dirt Boy! :cry:

Hi dirtboy

This short post is one of the most honest and profound statements I’ve read since I joined this forum. I’ve spent almost my entire adult life wavering between faith and unbelief. Doubt isn’t just my middle name, it’s my Christian name, surname and adopted by deedpole pseudonym.

But in that very doubt I find my salvation. I think. For the only God worth believing in is the one who gives me the amazing, the extraordinary gift of being free to be me. And I thank Him for that, even in the depths of my struggle.

Shalom

Johnny

But what is God getting at, and why does He place such a premium on faith?

I’m still not sure I get the “why,” and I’m not even sure I understand what’s meant here (as I would assume Jesus knew how much faith Phillip had, and what he would answer Him), but I was reading this tonight, and it seems relevant here.

When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. (John 6:5-6.)

It does seem that God tests, tries, or proves faith (but I’m not sure exactly what this means, or why He does it.)

God’s supreme examples of testing faith and faultless responses?

Mary mother of Jesus

and

Jesus Christ himself.

And why?

  • That we may know, thanks to Christ´s absolute faith, God’s love, mercy, and that all things are possible with God.

A simple example of the contrast between the absolute faith of Christ in the Father and our own faith with its doubts, and weaknesses?

Christ’s stroll on the water.

Peter tried. God maybe gave him 7 out of 10 for making the effort!.

Christ’s faith held. A firm hand came to Peter’s rescue, as his faith foundered!

  • There is an enlightening encounter on Faith (trust, belief), in William Young’s book the Shack

Papa [God] goes on to explain about Jesus: “……Jesus is fully human. Altho he is also God, he has never drawn upon his nature as God to do anything. He has only lived out of his relationship with me, living in the very same manner that I desire to be in relationship with every human being. He is just the first to do it to the uttermost – the first to utterly trust my life within him, the first to believe in my love aqnd goodness without regard for appearance and consequence”. [Mack]“ So when he healed the blind?”. “He did so as a dependent, limited human being trusting in my life and power to be at work within him. Jesus had no power within himself to heal anyone.”

Note the emphasis on “trust” and belief.

  • And why faith, hope, and charity? They are so inter-related. Just my opinion/belief here. If God did not love us, we would not trust him. Why does His love come first? Is its God’s love that leads us to have faith and hope (?).

I realise for debating purposes the rule in the Forum is to find supporting Biblical quotes. Please forgive me from not doing so and just digging into memory lane and personal belief, and of course I am open to being corrected …and enlightened.

Michael in Barcelona
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Thank you all.

God does seem to value faith, and to test it at times, but He also seems to expect it only some of the time, and I don’t understand why He values it.

I was just reading about the sinful woman who anointed Our Lord’s feet with her tears when He was in a Pharisee’s house.

Jesus said “her sins are forgiven her, because she loves much.”

That makes sense to me.

I understand why God values love.

But I don’t understand why He values faith, and I don’t understand why He seems to expect so much of some people sometimes, and required so little of doubting Thomas, and even Saint Paul.

When he heard Jesus had risen, doubting Thomas said “I’ll believe it when I see it.”

Jesus said “here I am.”

What kind of faith did Thomas need?

What kind of faith did Paul (who wrote and said so much on the subject) need after the risen Christ appeared to him on the road to Damascus, spoke to him, identified Himself, and knocked him off his horse (when he was an unbeliever, on his way to persecute Christians)?

None of the topic headings I’ve started regarding faith, coincidences, or related subjects have been intended to weaken anyone else’s, and I sincerely hope I haven’t, but I’ve been struggling with this for some time now.

Can anybody help me understand this question?