The Evangelical Universalist Forum

ECT is embarrassing all by itself

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

I mean the acronym itself. ECT - Eternal Conscious Torment.

Is there any other kind? It’s redundant. If you’re not conscious you’re not experiencing anything - let alone torture. The dead aren’t tormented - they’re sleeping.

ET “Eternal Torment” will work just fine.

I don’t know who came up with ‘ECT’ but he wasn’t the brightest card in the deck. For if God torments the UNconscious - He would be doing so for His OWN enjoyment. Not a pretty picture. It would be like torturing a rock or a piece of wood and just as much fun.

But someone will come up with EUT - Eternal Unconscious Torment - throw some scriptures at it and declare it Christian. Can’t get enough of a good thing…

#2

LOL–I agree, but I guess it’s for emphasis because ET people compromise their Hell sometimes, and make it a not-so-bad place. CS Lewis’ hell in The Great Divorce, for instance–everyone’s miserable, but they don’t really know it.

Btw, I recently noticed that the church I attend added it to their statement of belief–only they say “eternal concious punishment.” I suppose ‘torment’ sounded too awful. :sunglasses:

Sonia

#3

I thought it always distinguished eternal torment with annhiliation, where you have no consciousness, but the punishment is eternal?

#4

I always figured ECT was supposed to mean that God was consciously and intentionally punishing the people involved.

UR == God reconciles

Anni == God annihilates

ECT == God torments

ET == It still happens by God’s authority, but the proponents try to divorce it as much as possible from any action of God. (The damned lock the doors of hell from the inside, and torment each other; or God consciously puts them somewhere tormenty then has nothing to do with them at all anymore.)

However, since on a close principle reckoning ET turns out to be ECT (if supernaturalistic theism is true, vs. comsological dualism, or a polytheism within atheism, or anyway any alternate ‘theism’ where God does not actively keep all things in existence), I always just go with ECT. :slight_smile:

#5

Annihilation is neither eternal (it has an end) nor torment. It can’t even be construed as ongoing punishment except for those not annihilated and possibly gnashing THEIR teeth at the annihilation of their son/daughter or kin.

Granted, annihilation is an easy fix for a complex question - but not very satisfying - proponents have to ignore the words of Christ - the same thing they accuse us of doing.

#6

DEAD == God resurrects

Interesting. Although I really don’t see much of a distinction in HIS consciousness between ECT and ET - ‘putting them somewhere tormenty’ - didn’t he do that to Jesus and every other human, already? Don’t the tormented in this tormenty place accuse Him of ignoring them. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

#7

You can say annihilation is eternal if those annihilated never get un-annihilated. :sunglasses:

It’s certainly a much better option than ECT (just speaking philisophically, not scripturally). I can see why someone would choose that route over UR–especially if they can’t get past “aionios”.

Sonia

#8

You can say that annihilation is eternal if the dead never get resurrected.

As it turns out - death is the last enemy - but being deader than dead is not. Whatever victory Christ may claim over death is lost on the reality of a deader-death prevailing. Making God the last enemy.

So we are left with:

You can say that annihilation is eternal if the resurrected get unresurrected.

Which looks to me like the same defeat and failure to save the world.

#9

Pinshment

Punishment= kovlasiß =

Correction, punishment, penalty.

kovlasiß rooted in kolavzw

kolavzw =

To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

To curb, check, restrain.

To chastise, correct, punish.

To cause to be punished.

English: Correction =

  1. Alteration that corrects something: an alteration that removes an error.

  2. Written comment on error: something written beside an error in a text to point out what should be there instead.

  3. Removal of errors: the removal of errors from something, or the indication of errors in something.

  4. Modification to calculation: an adjustment made to a calculation or measurement to compensate for an observed deviation from ideal conditions.

  5. Punishment to reform somebody.

  6. Punishment, especially when meant to improve or reform the person punished.

  7. Rectitude: the act of setting right.

*If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
Albert Einstein *

Such is the people of the apostate church that have for their God a hard and brutal task master. Never finding rest, they work hard as they chase the carrot on the stick; the same stick that also serves as a rod to ever prod them in their circuit of futility. God help them and He will.

*The generality of men are naturally apt to be swayed by fear rather than reverence, and to refrain from evil rather because of the punishment that it brings than because of its own foulness.
Aristotle *

By the the light of the spirit, we leave the generality of natural men and our favor, not punishment, is to recognize the dark foulness of our old nature. Thank God that we have a Savior; Our Moshia’ that was tempted in all measures like us but unlike us he was never bowed. He knows our nature and delivers us, even from the sight of ourselves. My eyes are upon Him today and I am glad.

#10

ET phone home.

(OK, that was dumb.)

T