The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"ECT is more glorious than UR!"

I inadvertently sidetracked Sonia’s thread talking about this, so I thought I’d better move it here :sunglasses:

Recently I noticed that when I raise the point that UR is more glorious, that people feel obliged to try to make the case for ECT being *more *glorious, and then they have to say the Christians will be looking on and rejoicing at the ECT! It’s not a big step to then say we should be rejoicing now!! :frowning:

The Glory of God in the Problem of Evil

I just opened it to read…

Surely the greatest good is for all that God created thru Christ, to be reconciled to Christ?

I would suggest that that God has revealed His wise and holy reasons: He allowed evil because He knew He was able to, and indeed will, eventually rid the universe of evil (which is more glorious then leaving it as a fowl odor to His nose).

If His plans are to reconcile everything, then Hell must be temporary, otherwise His creatures are overthrowing His plans.

Whilst there is any opposition anywhere (even quarantined), be it in heart, mind or body, then everything is not yet in full submission to the Father, and therefore evil would still exist.

I glad he sees the need for it to be consistent with His love.

Shame ECT **isn’t ** temporary.

How does it *benefit *His people to have their closest friends, family & even children in ECT?

How is it to the fullest possible extent to have their closest friends, family & even children in ECT?

If they did they’d be assuming to know who God has or hasn’t elected. They’d be confusing covenant with election.

Contend for the faith,

God didn’t plan for evil. God is good, all-powerful and evil is evil. Whatever we say about the origin of evil must fall inside those three boundaries.

Alex,one more thing:
We need to make sure our definitions of “good” and “victory” are grounded in Scripture.

Well, traditionally anyone outside Christianity is going to ECT. That means when a non-Christian (to make it clearer, let’s say a militant Atheist like Dawkins) dies, theoretically we should rejoice that their rebellion is finally being punished? :open_mouth:

Sorry to use a stereotype, but I imagine the justification of some ultra right-wing Americans would be that God hates most people (as shown by His intent to send most people to Hell), therefore we should imitate that. I assume that’s the kind of logic of people carrying “God hates fags” signs at protests? Sadly, I get that impression from Jack S sometimes :frowning:

I’ll admit it’s tricky because God is also all knowing and I believe planned to send Jesus to rescue the chosen before the beginning of Creation? What about planned to allow evil?

Definitely, that’s exactly what I think EU tries to do. Total victory, total good, no left overs or no quarantine.

“For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” Rom11

Evil is a hole in the universe where God isn’t. It’s not real, no more than darkness is real. For example, the evil of cowardice is unreal because it’s the absence of courage, which is both real and good. Similarly, greed is the absence of contentment, lust is the absence of purity, and fear is the absence of faith. Because evil is unreal, God cannot be accused of making it, no more than a man who turns out the light can be accused of making the darkness. God uses the darkness of evil as a means to mercy, says Paul. He turns off the light for a time so we can better understand and love the light. By experiencing darkness, we will grow to hate it in the end. What will happen to evil when it’s done its work, when it’s finally thrown into the lake of divine Fire? The Darkness will be filled with Light.

Nicely put, very poetic too :slight_smile:

Yeah Alex, it does seem odd that God is presently hating certain (most?) people, and preparing to hate them for all eternity, while at the same time telling us to love them. Perhaps God leaves us in the dark about election to make it easier to love everyone since we can at least entertain the possibility that they are elect. Seems like a strange way to do things though. How does this sort of theology affect the depth of love we are capable of sharing?

But what if God said: “I really love them … all of them … and I will forever. Now you go out there and do the same.” Wouldn’t that be motivating?

Exactly :slight_smile:

I agree, but would take it further, God doesn’t *just *want to call it to our attention, but wants us to fully understand, acknowledge, accept and respond with joyful awe & praise \o/ (need a smiley for rejoicing/praise too)

But the sin & evil don’t have to be permanent in order for this to happen. There is darkness now, but eventually all will be light.

I see even God’s wrath as a manifestation of love and mercy, albeit a very painful one. I agree there is a contrast from our perspective.

:neutral_face: I don’t see why it needs to be infinite. I would be even more impressed when He managed to rescue all my friends & family from the wrath too!

I guess the main reason I’m a Christian Universalist is because it brings God the most glory. According to Jonathan Edwards:

God is glorified not only by His glory’s being seen, but by its being rejoiced in

When those that see it delight in it, God is more glorified than if they only see it. Therefore, God is most glorified if everybody sees His glory and rejoices in it instead of being miserable in hell. The old sinful self (ego) is “tormented” forever in hell. The Devil is punished forever, not Lucifer. Therefore, the manifestation of God glory in His hatred of sin goes on forever.

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, all the parts of His glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all…Thus it is necessary, that God’s aweful majesty, His authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of His goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all. If it were not right that God should permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in His providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever He bestowed, His goodness would not be so much prized and admired…So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which He made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of His love. And if the knowledge of Him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect. ~~ Jonathan Edwards

The view that gives God the most glory is the true interpretation. It’s the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. In his book “The Evangelical Universalist” Robin Parry gives this view. It is the correct view for God is most glorified.

One could maintain that the devil will be punished forever, but that Lucifer will ultimately be saved. Paul is able to speak of how God saves humans through the putting to death of “the flesh” or the “old person”. The human in rebellion against God is “killed” so that there is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). According to the tradition, the devil is a fallen angel. The devil, like the “flesh”, must be destroyed forever, because creation has no place for him. But he dies, and Lucifer is reborn as a redeemed angel. It would still be possible to speak of the devil being tormented forever and ever to symbolize this defeat even though no actual being is still in the lake of fire. This goes beyond anything taught in Revelation, but it is one way of trying to reconcile what revelation teaches with what Colossians teaches and I tentatively commend it to the reader. The Evangelical Universalist page 131

The view that gives God the most glory is the true interpretation. This is the view that gives God the most glory. We see this glory as Christ saves the outcasts in the Lake of fire. The paradox of the glory of Christ is His beautiful outshining radiance of His high holiness. We also see His glory shine in His love and humble lowliness for the outcasts. Jesus has always had compassion for the outcasts. The first are last and the last are first. The outcasts of the new creation will experience shame outside the gates in the lake of fire. But Jesus was always for healing the shamed outcasts.

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