ECT is not the face of Christianity

[Revival]

Everyone

For reasons unknown some have identified ECT as the face of Christianity. For those who oppose Christianity because of ECT are doing so by deception and not grasping Christianity for what it really is.

Man has become separated unto God spiritually because of Adam’s sin and the sin nature we possess as a result of that sin. God had nothing to do with the fall of Adam in Gen 3 but has everything to do with mopping up Adam’s mess. Man needs a change of nature before they die to be brought back into relationship with Him. We need to be born again spiritually. Christianity is the process of becoming Christ-like nothing more nothing less. Christianity is a family not a religion. You must receive God’s nature to replace the sin nature in your spirit to be apart of His family.

Romans 5:8
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This verse signifies the depths of the mercy of God in Christianity. God love the world so much he sent His Son to die for an undeserving wicked world to make provision for everyone to be reconciled back to Him if they choose too in this life. What a great deal!

Hell and the Lake of fire were created to be an eternal prison for the devil and his angels because they committed an unpardonable sin and possess a sinful or death nature that will separate them from God for eternity. Likewise all human beings who possess this same nature as the devil will join him in eternal separation from God.

ECT has never been the face of Christianity and never will be. Those who elevate the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation above the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences are just plain ignorant of God and His ways.

[JasonPratt]

ECT has never been the face of Christianity and never will be. Those who elevate the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation above the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences are just plain ignorant of God and His ways.

Preaching to the choir here on that topic, A.

No universalist here (or anywhere) elevates the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation above the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences. On the contrary, we elevate the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences (and even more importantly to escape the sins that lead to those consequence), above the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation.

What we’re complaining about is that ECT (and Anni) involves elevating “the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation above the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences”. And when people reject Christianity altogether because they think Christianity necessarily must involve ECT (or Anni), they’re complaining about that same elevation of the consequences above God’s saving mercy and grace (whether directly or in His ultimate competency).

Which, to put it bluntly, is why in effect we say that those who do so are being ignorant (not necessarily thru any fault of their own) of God and His ways. God doesn’t elevate the consequences of sin over His mercy and grace, and doesn’t let other people do so either–not finally so (although He may and in fact does allow them to do so temporarily. Even for ages of ages.)

Anyway, all Christian universalists here would absolutely agree that ECT (or any other hopeless punishment, or any other hopeless fate for the wicked) has never been the face of Christianity and never will be. Even though Christians have often believed ECT anyway.

[Revival]

On the contrary, we elevate the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences (and even more importantly to escape the sins that lead to those consequence), above the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation.

Here lies the problem with this. You can’t attach man’s addendum’s to the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation. It is appointed for man once to die and then judgment. No in between salvation’s once you die but judgement. If you are found judged to be without the life or nature of God you are thrown into lake of fire and sentenced to the eternal death penalty in Rev 20:10-15 which is the second death.

[davidbo]

On the contrary, we elevate the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences (and even more importantly to escape the sins that lead to those consequence), above the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation.

Here lies the problem with this. You can’t attach man’s addendum’s to the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation. It is appointed for man once to die and then judgment. No in between salvation’s once you die but judgement. If you are found judged to be without the life or nature of God you are thrown into lake of fire and sentenced to the eternal death penalty in Rev 20:10-15 which is the second death.

Wait… I thought you were arguing that “ECT is not the face of Christianity”…

[Revival]

On the contrary, we elevate the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences (and even more importantly to escape the sins that lead to those consequence), above the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation.

Here lies the problem with this. You can’t attach man’s addendum’s to the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation. It is appointed for man once to die and then judgment. No in between salvation’s once you die but judgement. If you are found judged to be without the life or nature of God you are thrown into lake of fire and sentenced to the eternal death penalty in Rev 20:10-15 which is the second death.

Wait… I thought you were arguing that “ECT is not the face of Christianity”…

I am. Again rejecting God’s way to salvation is not what
what defines Christianity. I suggest to read my post again.

[davidbo]

Everyone

For reasons unknown some have identified ECT as the face of Christianity.

To whomever has taken Revival’s place at the keyboard:

The some referred to above must surely include the one who over the last few weeks has relentlessly pounded this board with THE singular message: ECT IS the face of Christianity.

[JasonPratt]

On the contrary, we elevate the mercy and grace He provided at the cross to escape those consequences (and even more importantly to escape the sins that lead to those consequence), above the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation.

Here lies the problem with this. You can’t attach man’s addendum’s to the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation.

I would never attach man’s addendum’s to the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation. But I have less than no problem attaching God’s addendum to the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation! I would be denying my own salvation from sin, in principle, if I denied that.

That’s because I resolutely don’t elevate the consequences of rejecting God’s salvation above God’s grace and mercy to save. Including when I’m reading the verses you quote/reffed. Nor do I claim that God elevates those consequences above God’s grace and mercy to save.

Whereas, back when I believed in ECT, I spent several decades elevating the consequences of rejecting God’s salvation above God’s grace and mercy to save. Any affirmation of ECT necessarily involves that, and that’s something it took me a long time to learn.

You’re welcome to stop elevating those consequences above God’s grace and mercy anytime, too.

[JasonPratt]

Also, when you insist that ECT is necessarily part of true Christianity, then you are in fact claiming that ECT is (in exactly the same proportion) part of “the face of Christianity”.

It may not be the only part of the face; and there are people who misrepresent it as being the whole face of Christianity. But no Christian universalist here or elsewhere thinks it is even part of the face of Christianity, much less the whole face.

Until you clarify that you meant not the whole face, but only part of the face (and so in that proportion truly the face) of Christianity, you’re going to have people answering you the way others are doing on this thread.

(Even if you fix that, though, you’re still going to have the problem of refuting yourself on elevating the consequences of man’s sin above God’s saving grace and mercy.)

[davidbo]

Everyone

…God had nothing to do with the fall of Adam in Gen 3 but has everything to do with mopping up Adam’s mess.

Also to whomever is sitting at Revival’s keyboard:

Revival has made it clearly his position that God doesn’t mop up Adam’s mess. Revival has asserted over and over that God merely pushes the mess over to one side and then heats it up to unimaginable intensity so that the mess becomes ever more terrifying and horrible.

[Revival]

I would never attach man’s addendum’s to the consequences of rejecting God’s way to salvation.

Ahhh, but you do, Jason. You claim God himself is evangelizing people in Hell right now ( which is absurd) yet there is ZERO scripture support for this and billions upon billions who are judged not found recorded in the BOL and thrown into the LOF in Rev 20:11-15. God must be a really bad evangelist, Jason. This is a perfect example how you add an addendum to God’s word. It is appointed once for man to die and then JUDGMENT, Jason, not God evangelizing people in Hell. This is Jason Pratt’s erroneous belief and not the truth of God’s word.

[Revival]

Everyone

…God had nothing to do with the fall of Adam in Gen 3 but has everything to do with mopping up Adam’s mess.

Also to whomever is sitting at Revival’s keyboard:

Revival has made it clearly his position that God doesn’t mop up Adam’s mess. Revival has asserted over and over that God merely pushes the mess over to one side and then heats it up to unimaginable intensity so that the mess becomes ever more terrifying and horrible.

God cleaned up Adam’s mess by Jesus’ completed work at the cross. He made provision to be reconciled to anyone who wants it in this life. He also has warned man of the consequences of rejecting this reconciliation in this life in Rev 20:10-15. Your problem is with God’s word and not me, davidbo.

[BirdOfTheEgg]

Ahhh, but you do, Jason. You claim God himself is evangelizing people in Hell right now ( which is absurd) yet there is ZERO scripture support for this and billions upon billions who are judged not found recorded in the BOL and thrown into the LOF in Rev 20:11-15.

By this logic, there’s ZERO scriptural support for Jesus in the Old Testament. You should convert to Judaism right now.

Not everything is immediately stated. Many Jews did not believe, and still do not believe in Christ. For the same reasons. All it means is that God isn’t going to say absolutely everything immediately.

This is a perfect example how you add an addendum to God’s word. It is appointed once for man to die and then JUDGMENT, Jason, not God evangelizing people in Hell. This is Jason Pratt’s erroneous belief and not the truth of God’s word.

So if God is not evangelizing people in Hell, is he lying in 2 Timothy 4:10? How do you save all people, but also judge a lot of people to the Lake of Fire, without getting them out of the Lake of Fire, somehow?

[Revival]

Ahhh, but you do, Jason. You claim God himself is evangelizing people in Hell right now ( which is absurd) yet there is ZERO scripture support for this and billions upon billions who are judged not found recorded in the BOL and thrown into the LOF in Rev 20:11-15.

By this logic, there’s ZERO scriptural support for Jesus in the Old Testament. You should convert to Judaism right now.

Not everything is immediately stated. Many Jews did not believe, and still do not believe in Christ. For the same reasons. All it means is that God isn’t going to say absolutely everything immediately.

This is a perfect example how you add an addendum to God’s word. It is appointed once for man to die and then JUDGMENT, Jason, not God evangelizing people in Hell. This is Jason Pratt’s erroneous belief and not the truth of God’s word.

So if God is not evangelizing people in Hell, is he lying in 2 Timothy 4:10? How do you save all people, but also judge a lot of people to the Lake of Fire, without getting them out of the Lake of Fire, somehow?

God doesn’t save all people. He provides provision for all to be saved. I think you meant 1 Tim 4:10. Every person who is in Hell right now will be found not recorded in the BOL and thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:10-15. God must be one awful evangelist, Bird. If God really were evangelizing Hell it would be emptied and not one person would be thrown into the LOF. Why wait until they are thrown into the LOF to evangelize?

[Lefein]

God doesn’t save all people.

Then God failed; and is impotent, and incompetent.

And if he should refuse to save all then he is blaspheme worthy!

Either God can’t, or he won’t save all people. Either he has failed, and is subject to failure and frustration, or he is blasphemable.

[Revival]

God doesn’t save all people.

Then God failed; and is impotent, and incompetent.

God provided provision for all to be saved by the completed work at the cross. He did His part, Lefein. Now it is up to man to extend their faith to partake of this salvation in this life.

[davidbo]

Everyone

…God had nothing to do with the fall of Adam in Gen 3 but has everything to do with mopping up Adam’s mess.

Also to whomever is sitting at Revival’s keyboard:

Revival has made it clearly his position that God doesn’t mop up Adam’s mess. Revival has asserted over and over that God merely pushes the mess over to one side and then heats it up to unimaginable intensity so that the mess becomes ever more terrifying and horrible.

God cleaned up Adam’s mess by Jesus’ completed work at the cross. He made provision to be reconciled to anyone who wants it in this life. He also has warned man of the consequences of rejecting this reconciliation in this life in Rev 20:10-15. Your problem is with God’s word and not me, davidbo.

If God cleaned up the mess that Adam created then there is no mess.

God must have washed all the messy stuff away.

If Adam’s messy stuff includes suffering, torment, and separation from God then these must be washed away.

But you say on one hand that God cleaned it up, and then on the other hand God made provision for it to be cleaned up.

There is a huge difference between cleaning up a mess and making provision for a mess to be cleaned up.

Don’t forget we are talking about a mess of unimaginable proportions here.

The God you espouse appears to be a very lousy cleaner.

[Lefein]

God provided provision for all to be saved by the completed work at the cross. He did His part, Lefein. Now it is up to man to extend their faith to partake of this salvation in this life.

“This life”? How pitiful that the Almighty should be fenced in by Death. O’ Death how you’ve imprisoned God…How you’ve chopped off the right hand of the Almighty and shortened his reach, so that the grave is untouchable, so that his Holy Spirit is impotent to save and reach the dead in Hades…

That is what you imply when you say that the window of opportunity is only in embodied life in the land of the living. He either can’t, or won’t, save…You seem to suggest he won’t, or else that Death prevents him so that he can’t.

[Revival]

Davidbo

Read Rev 22, mess all cleaned up. The provision did clean the mess up on God’s part. Now He expects man to do his part and partake of this cleanup in this life.

[Revival]

God provided provision for all to be saved by the completed work at the cross. He did His part, Lefein. Now it is up to man to extend their faith to partake of this salvation in this life.

“This life”? How pitiful that the Almighty should be fenced in by Death. O’ Death how you’ve imprisoned God…How you’ve chopped off the right hand of the Almighty and shortened his reach, so that the grave is untouchable, so that his Holy Spirit is impotent to save and reach the dead in Hades…

That is what you imply when you say that the window of opportunity is only in embodied life in the land of the living. He either can’t, or won’t, save…You seem to suggest he won’t, or else that Death prevents him so that he can’t.

It is appointed for man to die once and then judgment. No post mortem reconciliation here, Lefein.

[Lefein]

It is appointed for man to die once and then judgment. No post mortem here, Leifen.

*Lefein

The Judgement is God’s judgement. His judgements are always remedial, never for mere infliction of pain. Certainly not endless, ceaseless, increasing pain. God did not purpose the Lake of Fire for a mere display of force and endless punishment just because he was offended by a little human creature. He purposed it for the restoration of the created, the burning away of the stubble, the chaff, the dross, the deadly, and the sin; so that the precious and good that God created as the man could be kept, and be freed.

Christ baptises every man with fire and every man must pass through it and suffer loss, though he himself is saved though as one saved through fire.