The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Endless Purification?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

I’m reading Dr Papandrea’s The Wedding of the Lamb: A Historical Approach to the Book of Revelation, which I’m quite enjoying (I like Panadrea and recommend his Early Chuch History Youtubes/book), but it’s interesting when talks about fire/lake of fire.

He sees fire/lake of fire as purificatory, but (oddly IMHO - and because of his Catholicism I assume) claims that this purification process is endless for some. To quote:

‘… most of the references to fire as purification are directly related to judgement … On the surface, one might assume that references to the lake of fire are more about destruction than purification. However, if the ones thrown into the lake of fire are said to be there for eternity, then it is clear that they are not destroyed. They continue to exist for eternity, though apparently suffering an endless purification process … John does not say that this last group of people are to be tormented for eternity. If we take the absence of the mention of eternal torment in Rev 20:15 as significant, then it is possible that there is hope for this group. They are thrown into the lake of fire, but perhaps not for eternity, and if we assume that the fire in this verse means purification, we may hold out hope that this group will be purified at some point. If this is true, then we have two distinct groups who are thrown into the lake of fire. The first group consists of those who commit the unforgivable sin and deny Christ, those who demand worship of themselves (the emperors), and the devil and his demons, who are all thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. Apparently, they cannot ever be purified, but they will spend eternity in the process of purification. The second group would consist of those whose names are not in the book of life, who are thrown into the lake of fire, but perhaps not for eternity. They would presumably then be purified and eventually allowed to enter the presence of God in the eternal city. If this interpretation is correct, it could also be an early reference to a belief in purgatory (cf 1Cor 3:15) … Other texts which use the image of fire to refer to purification, or speak of a process of purification, include Matt 3:11; Lk 3:16; 1Cor 3:12-15; 1Pet 1:7; Prov 17:3; Is 1:25; Dan 12:10; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:2-3 as well as Wisdom 3:1-9 and Sirach 2:5.’

All very interesting stuff, but I find the idea of endless purification a tad absurd. Comments?

#2

That would be technical universalism, but a stalemate situation: God persists in acting toward saving all sinners from sin, and never stops acting toward this even though (per prophecy on this theory) some sinners will forever refuse to repent.

That would be coherent with Roman Catholicism I think, but I would want to know from Dr. Papandrea:

1.) Does he mean that God is putting them into a situation as punishment where they will never be purified, by reference to the unforgivable sin? If so, then he’s contradicting the principle that God keeps acting to save them from sin, so he shouldn’t call their fate purgation. But if he means something like MacDonald, where the unforgivable sin is the sin someone refuses to repent of, even to the point of contradicting themselves on what they otherwise would accept in order to hold to their sin, then the sinners are the ones choosing not to be purged by God’s ongoing purgation.

2.) Since he explicitly includes the kings of the earth in that class of people who won’t ever be saved, how does he deal with the kings of the earth in Rev 21?

I’m glad he sees Matt 3:11 as a purifying fire, following the context back to the OT source JohnBapt is citing (I suppose). Luke 3:16 isn’t a separate incidence, though – that’s a report of the same scene.

#3

I’m not sure what he’d say about 1 , Jason :slight_smile:

But, some more of what he says about purification:
‘Those who persecuted the church, along with satan himself, are to be considered so evil that no amount of purification could make them clean. Therefore, the purification process goes on for eternity. This process is described as ‘torment’, however the Greek word that is translated ‘tormented’ originally meant ‘tested’ just as in the context of the purification of gold …the same Greek word is used to describe persecution in a letter by Clement of Rome … Therefor the torment of the persecutors is their just pay-back for their torment of the followers of Jesus. But it is to be interpreted more as ongoing purification process than as eternal torture … More in terms of emotional and psychological torment, in other words, eternal regret’

Regarding the kings he doesn’t really pick up on the point, and is pretty vague about the New Jerusalem situation:

‘Though its gates are always open (Rev 21:25; Is 60:11), no one who is not purified may enter (Rev 21:27; Is 60:18) … The tree with the fruit always in season represents the fact that … There will be no injury, in fact no need for healing … Nations here indicates the the New Jerusalem is not limited to any particular ethnic group’

I suspect that it’s mostly his Catholicism which keeps him from a more hopeful universalism, though I could be wrong.

#4

Pog :slight_smile:

This sounds a bit like the rabbinical ideas about Gehenna in the earliest strata of the Talmud - before it takes ’ the merciful turn’ - Gehenna is a place of purification; however some may be so wicked that they will never be completely purified and so will have to say there.

#5

So the tree with leaves of healing for the nations indicates there will in fact be no need for healing the nations… :unamused:

I would have thought the fruit always being in season means no one needs to wait to eat of the fruit (and be healed by the leaves!) once they obtain permission to enter the city and eat of the fruit.

So their evil permanently defeats God’s salvation and purification by its own inherent strength, but God goes on trying anyway?

I can (sort of) understand a never-ending stalemate, due to God not choosing to merely force proper behavior on someone, thus limiting Himself on how far He expend His power; but this kind of interpretation simply make evil stronger than God!–and God being stupid for continuing to try when He knows that they’ve hopelessly defeated Him!

#6

So can I — theoretically. But not practically.

It you toss a die a million times, theoretically a six can turn up every time. But practically, this will not happen. Yet theoretically it could happen.

Of course, a die is not a free-will agent as is a human being. Yet, when a person is subject to God’s ministrations post-mortem plus possibly the witness of the completed sons of God, they may be capable of resisting for a long time. But can the resist for an infinite amount of time? Theoretically yes, but practically no.

If they could, they would have an infinite will, and in some sense be equal to God.

#7

Agreed – although I don’t think infinite will would be even possibly a deciding factor, but rather the choice of God not to overwhelm with His infinite will!

But if I hadn’t thought at first that the scriptures testified to non-salvation for some sinners, I would have said (and still do say for people who go for the stalemate as a plausibility) that it doesn’t take a whole lot of faith to bet on God rather than on sinners. :wink:

#8

This verse was part of yesterday’s message at church:

Phl 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

I sat there thinking about this power to subject all things to himself … Wow! if He does have this power, will He not actually exert it on behalf of all things? Paul says elsewhere that He must reign until all things are subject to Him. And it says here that the exercising of this power results in transformation “into conformity with the body of His glory.”

I’m betting on Him! :smiley:

Sonia

#9

The resurrection of Christ (as the firstfruit) and the resurrection of the faithful (as the firstfruits) and even the resurrection of the wicked (though not to the glorification of God’s own power and life yet), all become promissary examples of the completion of salvation from sin into righteousness.

#10

Another interesting tid-bit from the book:

Papandrea notes that John talks of the Tree of Life being ‘on both sides of the river, which is a confusing picture. It is reminiscent of Ezk 47:12 where there are multiple trees mentioned. In John’s vision there is only one tree because of the connection with the tree of life in the garden of Eden, but the placement on both banks of the river probably symbolizes the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles … The addition of the healing of the nations here indicates that the New Jerusalem is not limited to any particular ethinic group … The very definition of reigning would seem to imply that there are some who are ruled over …’

#11

My mind is very large indeed (I suspect infinitely large), but for the most part, it’s quite dark and quite empty. God’s light will fill it slowly but surely, but will it ever be full? Will there ever come a time when I can learn nothing new, or will there always be more dark space into which the light of God can flow? If so, I will be endlessly purified, endlessly enlightened by the glory of God.

#12

Good image, Allen! :slight_smile:

Since John uses the term “log of life”, he’s almost certainly (also) thinking of the cross; but if he’s thinking of the tree of life in comparison with Ezekiel’s multiple trees or a multiple root system, he might also be thinking of the ancient tradition that the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil grew intertwined (and were in fact practically the same tree!) at the center of the Garden of Eden. Having cheated to get access to one (thus getting something actually good in an unfaithful and frankly illogical way), access to the other was denied until the whole ‘cheating’ part could be straightened out. :wink:

But then once that’s dealt with, access to both trees, or modes of the same tree, are (in the poetic imagery) obtained.

Anyway, the same tree of life heals the “nations”, who up until Rev 21 were God’s mortal enemies, so I don’t think we have to go to the tree spanning two sides of the river to get the idea that the nations are being included. I expect the imagery suggests that the river flows under and so only through the tree to leave the city – no one following the river back into the city can come in by getting around the tree (nor should they since they still need to be healed by its leaves).