From J. Preston Eby’s *The Lake of Fire *comes this idea. I haven’t seen it posted here yet, but I might have missed it.
The unfaithful servant, who will receive many stripes, has his portion appointed with unbelievers (Luke 12:46). But the portion appointed to unbelievers (i.e., the faithless) is in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Both the unfaithful servant and the unbeliever, then, have been appointed their portion in the Lake of Fire. But the unfaithful servant is to receive many stripes, not endless, eternal, or infinite stripes. Thus, the Lake of Fire may not necessarily be a place from which one cannot escape.
I’d agree with that, Iancia. Although I wouldn’t use the word “escape.” To me that implies something like an unlawful breaking out of prison. There is no escape … “you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” But apart from that I agree that as God is Just, punishment always is fitting to the crime. The Unquenchable Fire burns everything that can be burned till all that remains is the Image-bearing man. Some will find themselves left with nothing, others will find they have treasures laid up.
I beleive the lake of fire isn’t a literal place at all. I believe it’s God himself. he is “the” consuming fire. The first time he appear to Moses, it was by fire. When he led Israel through and out of the wilderness, it was with fire. When he showed up for Elijah when soldiers were sent to get him, it was by fire, when he did the famous confrontation with the false prophets of baal, it was by fire. When Isaiah was in the spirit before the altar, the seraphim took a coal from the fire and . .PURGED his lips. When the spirit poured out in the upper room, flames of fire appeared on the heads of those present. God’s fire is all through Scripture, why would one be surprised that the same fire appeared in Revelation?
Yes, that interpretation seems reasonable. I think the important thing, though, whether the Lake of Fire is literal or figurative, is that the Luke 12 verses together with Revelation 21:8 show that punishment for sinners is likely not eternal.
The LoF is surrounded by the Lamb and the angels (Rev.14.10). Where does Jesus sit? (Next to God!) What surrounds the throne of God? (Angels!)
Brimstone, theon (note “theo”), means “divine fire”.
Brimstone, sulfur was burned by the Greeks and Romans as incense for healing and spiritual purification.
Hot sulfur (brimstone) springs were widely sought for their healing properties.
Torment, basanizo, is etymologically rooted in the purification of valuable metals (gold, silver) by fire.
God himself is called a consuming fire.
In Revelation “before” the LoF the nations and the kings are anti-Christ, but “after” the LoF they are worshipping God and paying Him homage.
Also, it’s the “victorious” that are rewarded, but everyone else, well, it’s the LoF. I wonder how many “believers” are “fearful, cowardly, liars, sexually immoral, murderers, etc.”? Note that the issue being judged is how one actually lives, patterns of life, not just what one professes to believe!
When I put all these things together, it seems to me that the LoF is metaphorically speaking of the volcanic, all consuming, healing, purifying, awesome and fearful presence of God! And it is a warning concerning how we (especially believers) live, not just what we believe!
A big AMEN to all of this!!!
I do struggle so when traditional believers get all up in arms over the idea that people aren’t going to spend eternity in torment. I mean, it’s one thing to not be in agreement on something . . .that happens all the time and yet the continuity of the message can easily remain intact as well as the relationships. But when you get around people who’ve been “churched” on such things as hell, rapture of the church, lake of fire, not only do they disagree, but they just freak out and try to condemn and judge you while trying to disarm your message. Yet those on the other end, who do see God did save the whole world and that hell isn’t a place for eternal torment, when “they” cross paths with others who think otherwise, there is no judging, no condemnation, no criticizing, there may be a lot of debating going on, but not from a judgmental stand, at least not from what I’ve seen there are always a few who cross that line from time to time, but generally speaking . .even though we believe their terribly wrong for assuming you can have a relationship of love that was originally motivated by fear. . .there’s no attempt to degrade them in any way . . .wonder why that is???
It’s as if they want it to be true…which i believe most of them do. My born-again Christian brother got all riled up when i told him i don’t believe in ECT anymore. Told me i was deceived and was very disappointed in me. I simply cant discuss i with him anymore…
Yes i noticed that too. Maybe because our belief is based on love and their belief isn’t? So they’re more hostile? Its as if we broke their little bubble for feeling special or something, like one of the lucky ones who don’t have to roast for eternity… Seems they are looking forward for sinners to be in that ECT because well…they deserve it. Our message is based on love and forgiveness, so we’re not going to cop an attitude in quite the same way…perhaps?
To be fair, it’s entirely possible to run across UR proponents who get riled up about ECT and/or annihilation–and I mean in a way that’s insulting to non-universalists. That even happens with me on occasion.
Someone with a constant pattern of denigrating non-universalists, though, is asked to move along from this forum eventually. So you won’t find much of that happening here. (We’ve banned more universalists than non-universalists, although the proportion of Kaths is obviously much higher so it shouldn’t be surprising that there will be more troublemakers.)
I mention this mainly to acknowledge that Kaths (KathRecs, URecs, UniRecs, universal reconciliationists, universalists, however we might be called) are not inherently immune to that kind of thing. Several of us know of boards where the UR proponents tend (or tended) more often than not to be personally disparaging to non-URs. That may be understandable, it may even be excusable to some degree (depending on circumstances), but if this board is different in its friendliness that’s due to some police action on our part, not (entirely anyway) due to an inherent advantage of our beliefs.
I really wonder if many ECTers have ever READ Revelation! The verse you mention is in Chapter 21, yet after the New Jerusalem has descended in Chapter 22, who do we find outside it’s walls?
22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
The very people who were torched.
And what does Jesus then say to them? “The Spirit and the Bride say “Come”! Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.” (This isn’t a message TO the church – the Bride is speaking. It’s a message FROM the Church. In 22:3 it’s clear that believers are already INSIDE the City serving God.)
And when will these words be retracted? NEVER! Jesus warns never to change these words of prophecy.
Absolutely wonderful perspective. I especially liked your vision on the fact that the message isn’t “to” the church . . .but it’s “from” the church . . .that’s really a huge insight!!!
Good stuff, thanks! It’s truly amazing how ECT is read into a passage that so wonderfully affirms that God never gives up reaching out, that love never gives up! So the Spirit and the Bride say “Come”! And who needs water more than someone who’s been in the fire! Awesome! Thanks again.
I am reading carefully here, and am not convinced you are describing the picture accurately…
I see problems with both points Nottirbd attempted to make:
Regarding the first:
Rev. 21:8 is describing the “second death”.
Rev. 22:15 is describing who remains “outside” the gates of the City.
Isn’t it reasonable to see both of these descriptions as compatible pictures/metaphors for who is NOT part of the eternal City (i.e. heaven / New Jerusalem). The chronological implications of 22:15 being AFTER the New Jerusalem has ascended and also AFTER the “second death” might be a problem for Annihilationists, but not for ECT. It is simply two pictures of the same ongoing reality.
Regarding the 2nd:
Note, the words in v.22 are not typically ascribed to Jesus (i.e. Red Letter editions putting these words back in the pen of John, with Jesus’ quote ending in v.16). But, regardless of whether Jesus is speaking or John is referencing Jesus’ comments, your point doesn’t work… This is an epilogue to the entire book. The call to “come” is to us - the readers of the prophecy. As is the warning (which follows immediately in v. 18) of the curse to not alter the revelation. So, it does not follow that Jesus is still inviting those outside the city (post New Jerusalem) to still “come”. Their lot has been determined to remain “outside”. And that is the final word said about them.
We need to be more careful than this in our interpreting of what Scripture actually asserts.
I’m intrigued by your hypothesis here. However, while you are reasoning something that might seem possible or desirable (“the fire is eternal, the purging isn’t”), it seems to contradict clear statements in Scripture. To maintain your assertion, how do you deal with such plain statements regarding the ongoing/continuous nature of the purging in these Scriptures?:
Rev. 14:10-11 (in reference to those who worship the ‘beast’): “the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength… and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur … and the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER AND EVER, and they will have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT.”
Rev. 20:10 (in reference to the devil, beast, and false prophet): “thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur… and they will be tormented DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER”.
Do you see rest or a subsiding in these descriptions?
Also, for those who are asserting that fiery/sulfuric torment is actually meaning refining purification toward redemption… how do we see the purification stopping/completing in these verses. It would appear that even this meaning would require that the purifying fire does not finish its work.
Another problem this would raise in 20:10 is the seeming gutting of the punitive nature of God’s wrath toward satan and his 2 chief accomplices.
I am sincerely interested in knowing how URs view these verses.
I think your interpretation is valid. You’re saying that those outside the city are the ones in the Lake of Fire, correct? I’d agree with that.
The way I understand it, the new Jerusalem which is seen descending from heaven is the Church herself – the Bride of Christ. The light of the city is the glory of God and the lamp is the Lamb. The light shines forth from the always open gates and …
Rev 21:24ff By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day–and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Who are the kings of the earth? Here are the places where they are mentioned in this book:
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk."
Rev 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth."
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
We read at the end of Rev 21, the list of those who remain outside … but look what follows:
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
There is the tree of life whose purpose is the healing of the nations.
There is the water of life, flowing forth from the gates in an ever widening stream to the sea, purifying all it touches.
The unclean things may not enter the open gates, but there is the water for those who want to be clean …
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
I agree that it is an exhortation to us now, just as it was an exhortation to them at the time John wrote, and it will be an exhortation to all who hear the words to all generations and all ages, and the eternal gospel will be proclaimed until it comes to pass that “… no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
i think that’s an interesting phrase. for nothing to be accursed in the new age to come, i would suggest that either the cursed thing must cease to be, or the curse must be lifted.
I’ve found that due to Revelation being filled with metaphors, people, myself included, will naturally understand those metaphors through the lens of their systematic theology, and it’s very difficult to convince them, me, otherwise. Also, I believe it’s important to note that Revelation is interpreted in at least 4 significantly different ways - Preteristically, Historically, Metaphorically, and Futuristically. And the Futuristic view has at least 4 or 5 significantly differing sub-views. Thus I am reticent to look to the Lake of Fire, or the Beast, or the New Jerusalem, or the Dragon to “prove” or affirm any matters concerning systematic theology.
Indeed; Young’s literal translation would like a word with you:
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb: 2 in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service (healing) of the nations; 3 and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him, 4 and they shall see His face, and His name [is] upon their foreheads, 5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign – to the ages of the ages.
6 And he said to me, These words [are] stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly: 7 Lo, I come quickly; happy [is] he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.' 8 And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things; 9 and he saith to me,See – not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.’ 10 And** he saith to me**, Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh; 11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still: 12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. 14Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; 15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie. 16 I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star! 17 **And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come**; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and **he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely**. 18For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll, 19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;’
Note that they are outside the walls of the New Jerusalem because they are still actively loving and doing a lie. But then it says, he who is thirsting, let him come, and he who is willing, let him take the water of life freely. Also note the other bolded bits. The Spirit AND the Bride say “come”. To whom? The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. What do they need healing from?
Those who are still outside the walls are outside because nothing unclean may enter. But Revelation also indicates how that situation can change; Those who wash their robes and are made clean!
Besides which, Revelation is not the end of the story. Paul got that revelation, not John.
Right. Or we might say that while John had a good understanding of what the “end of the story” would be (for I believe all of the NT authors were universalists and that UR is an implication of the gospel itself), the purpose for which he wrote the Revelation didn’t include writing about what Paul had already made known in his letters (although I do think John alludes to the “end of the story” in Rev 21:4 and very possibly in Rev 5:13). It called for a different emphasis.
Seems they are looking forward for sinners to be in that ECT because well…they deserve it. 
(We’ve banned more universalists than non-universalists, although the proportion of Kaths is obviously much higher so it shouldn’t be surprising that there will be more troublemakers.)