I havent gotten that impression from anyone either. I just thought that DaveB’s impression about the words “betrayal of the gospel” were to some extent legit, so I was speaking about a general situation where people often attach belief in the Trinity to their soteriology, which would lend some swing weight to those words. In that context, “betrayal of the gospel” could be interpreted that way, but I wasnt trying to pigeon hole anyone, just making general observations about the subject matter as the discussion opened up.
For instance, I do the think the history of how men enforce theology bears on the credibility of their theological constructs, which I mentioned relating to hellism as well as deity issues.
Wise words, and gracious, after taking heat especially. You’ve set a good example for all of us.
Of all the questions that have arisen and are yet to be answered concerning the Muslim religion, the question: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? - is most vexing. I’ve been following MavPhil’s extensive threads on the subject, and what I thought would be an easy answer - well it ain’t so easy. I’ve settled on my own opinion, but I’m going to go any further than calling it that. There is a reason I bring this up? Yes, two actually.
1.First, the main focus of the ‘same God’ problem (SGP) as between Muslim and Christian is, for many people, the tri-unity of the Xn and the strict monotheism of the Muslim. I think that’s a wrong-headed approach, but there is a lot of discussion centered around the SGP in trin/monotheist terminology and concepts. Too big a problem to go into here.
- It slowly dawns on one, going through the arguments concerning the SGP, that the question will eventually be asked - does that Xn worship the same God as that other Xn? That’s the cutting question.
The answers range from a curt “yes of course” to a curt ‘no’ to a whole lot of not curt ‘maybes’ and ‘probablies’.
Wise words, and gracious, after taking heat especially. You’ve set a good example for all of us.
Of all the questions that have arisen and are yet to be answered concerning the Muslim religion, the question: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? - is most vexing. I’ve been following MavPhil’s extensive threads on the subject, and what I thought would be an easy answer - well it ain’t so easy. I’ve settled on my own opinion, but I’m going to go any further than calling it that. There is a reason I bring this up? Yes, two actually.
1.First, the main focus of the ‘same God’ problem (SGP) as between Muslim and Christian is, for many people, the tri-unity of the Xn and the strict monotheism of the Muslim. I think that’s a wrong-headed approach, but there is a lot of discussion centered around the SGP in trin/monotheist terminology and concepts. Too big a problem to go into here.
- It slowly dawns on one, going through the arguments concerning the SGP, that the question will eventually be asked - does that Xn worship the same God as that other Xn? That’s the cutting question.
The answers range from a curt “yes of course” to a curt ‘no’ to a whole lot of not-curt ‘maybes’ and ‘probablies’. One’s soteriology does play a part in how that question is answered.
Bob’s admonitions have been to the point (and some of you others as well of course). We must be careful to only add to our confession what is CLEAR in scripture, if we are addressing the SGP.
I hope we don’t go too far down that road - the SGP road - as that road can be disastrous if not handled with extreme care.
I don’t think anyone who has read the NT without bringing to his reading, Trinitarian thought that he had already accepted, would be have found the Trinity anywhere therein, except possibly I John 5:7. But that verse did not occur in any Greek text of 1 John until the ninth century. It first appeared as a footnote, and afterward was copied directly into the text.
I just got back on the forum this evening (log-in issues), so I apologize for missing this hot topic. No way I’m going to read all this. I just would like to share a little about my understanding of the reason this forum was started.
There are lots and bunches of Unitarian websites and discussion sites, and God bless you all and all of the Unitarians. They are accepted and beloved of God. THIS, however, is a site whose very inception was for the purpose of reaching out to EVANGELICALS who do think that Unitarianism (not just for its nontrinitarian doctrines, but for other reasons as well) is a betrayal of the gospel.They just do. Whether or not this is an accurate representation is beside the point. This website was started in order to facilitate the introduction of EVANGELICAL Christians to the concept of Universalism, discussing it as a doctrine that does in fact integrate well with EVANGELICAL doctrines.
That’s NOT to say that our many wonderful and lovely and loving non-Evangelical brothers and sisters aren’t welcome here, or that they are not **very **much appreciated and encouraged to continue to engage in discussion of their viewpoints. No one here (so far as I know) considers any of our nontrinitarian members to be betrayers of the gospel. They’re doing their best to seek out truth and be faithful to the leading of the Holy Spirit. They–all of them–are very welcome to hang out in this Evangelical living room, drink coffee, sip tea, quaff brewskis, and chew fat. That said, it is still an Evangelical living room, and the tenets of this house are basically Evangelical. There are lots of living rooms of Unitarian houses, and in those hang-outs, such a remark (as Robin Parry’s) would be inappropriate. In THIS living room, the whole point is to introduce Evangelicals to a Universalism that does not negate or violate their foundational doctrines. Dissenting friends are always welcome, and encouraged to make themselves at home, but they don’t get to make it into a general public room. It’s still the living room of an Evangelical house.
I hope this doesn’t hurt anyone’s feelings, and the LAST thing I want to do is to make anyone feel unwelcome. It’s just that we do need all kinds of houses, and we need this one to be what it is.
There are of course some language uses, pejoratives for instance, that don’t belong in anyone’s living room. I for one will really try not to name-call or “labelize” (?) from henceforth. And would appreciate the same from the homeowners as, by and large, has been the case. 
I don’t understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same.
For one thing but not the only thing it’s not clear that the Holy Spirit is God and is in fact a “He”. Maybe he is but I have heard persuasive arguments both ways.
I’t’s just about as unimaginable to me, as folks seeing the X-Files back on TV and not becoming exited about it 
While the 2016 episode 1 was a let down, it’s back up to speed in Episode 2. It just conflicts time wise, with Super Girl on CVS. But Super Girl has gotten pretty exciting, with the Martian Manhunter, being part of the show. But afterwards, I can watch the nerds on Scorpion 
Here’s something you can try, that I’ve shared on Twitter today:
31 of the Best Office Pranks & Practical Jokes to Pull on Your Work Buddies
I’t’s just about as unimaginable to steve7150 wrote:I don’t understand how a Christian could read the NT and not be a Trinitarian, but I love you non-Trins all the same…
me, as folks seeing the X-Files back on TV and not becoming exited about it 
Actually the quote above was from Qaz. 
Multitasking again. It can trip me up at times.
This is a fascinating question/problem Dave.
If I give an answer “no”, then as you say, it could be seen as curt. If I also say that I worship a different God to Calvinists, then this may confirm my ‘lack of love’, but although those examples may be a true reflection of my beliefs, I need to add that I think we ALL worship different Gods in that each of us has a construct in our minds which doesn’t come close to the true God. We do our best but the characteristics I impose on my God will be very/slightly different to my fellow traveler and those characteristics IMO are much more important than whether we hold to a virgin birth or triune being or…
To be clear, I think I would feel easier worshiping with a muslim such as Rumi than worshiping with, say, a hyper-Calvinist.
Well, Pilgrim, I joked about the question before.
But there is a lot of seriousness in that answer. If you ask if indigenous people, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Christians and Bahais, worship a monotheistic God, who created the universe, the answer is Yes.
If you ask - for example - “does the Christian and Muslim God, have the same attributes” - the answer is NO. You just need to read the book What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur’an by James W. White, to answer that question. The God of Christianity is a God of grace and forgiveness. The God of Islam has angels count your good and bad deeds and has a system of laws. Hopefully, the good deeds outweigh the bad, at the end of life. Only in their mystical movement of Sufism, does Islam approach Christianity.
To understand more, read the referred book. Or watch the Theosophical Society webcast this Thursday, 1/28/16 at 7 PM CST on Islamic Spirituality: The Role of Religious Law, by a professor in religious studies. He’s at the College of Dupage (with a PhD from Yale). Or watch the rebroadcast, about a week later, at Theosophical Society rebroadcasts
It’s nice that the Faculty advisory board at Wheaton College, recently recommended dropping the termination procedure against the black professor. She said “Muslims and Christians worship the same God”. Perhaps if she hired me to intercede (at the college on her behalf), this would never have become an issue.
Good stuff.
If you ask - for example - “does the Christian and Muslim God, have the same attributes” - the answer is NO. You just need to read the book What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur’an b6 James W. White, to answer that question. The God of Christianity is a God of grace and forgiveness. The God of Islam has angels count your good and bad deeds and has a system of laws. Hopefully, the good deeds outweigh the bad, at the end of life. Only in their mystical movement of Sufism, does Islam approach Christianity.
Yes plus many other differences. In Islam God is never thought of as a Father nor are believers sons of God. God is unknowable, distant , believers are slaves, salvation is uncertain except in martyrdom and women are property and to believe God had a Son is blasphemous.
Plus there is a certain amount of fatalism in Islamic theology and philosophy. Just read the New York Times article Islam’s Tragic Fatalism
I think presenting biblical universalism to the body of Christ at large, or even just evangelicals as a group, presents more than enough challenges for those of us who understand it to unite around and stay focused upon. To me it is a way more important understanding than the issues surrounding the structure of Deity, or Calvinism vs Aminianism, or preterism vs historicism, or symbolism versus literalism, or liberalism vs fundamentalism
Thank God,
It WILL all come out in the wash.
I dont think anyone will be known as a Trinitarian or a Unitarian or an Evangelical, Catholic or Protestant once that sun comes over the horizon.
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19** So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.** 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1 Pet 1
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.1 Cor 4
It WILL all come out in the wash.
Easy for you to say, you haven’t seen my wash? It’s interesting how folks react not even to CU but simply to the possibility of salvation after death. I said that to a Christian friend of my wife and it made her angry? It’s like if other people can get saved it makes their salvation less special? At least I can’t think of any other explanation.