The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Eternal Conscious Torment would Make God a Liar!

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Yesterday, I read the entire biblical book of Revelation.

Lightbulb moment about Revelation 21:4 . When I have read this in the past, I took a great deal of comfort in it as a personal promise of an end to my suffering, but it’s not just written to me!

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away."

There shall be no more pain, sorrow, crying. . .
This declaration is incompatible with eternal torment accompanied by weeping and gnashing of teeth.
“No more” means “no more”!

#2

Hi Gem
Keep up the good work
But to whom does the “their” refer to in the first line? Does the context make it clear that it is all of humanity or could it be a sub-group?

#3

That’s right Gem and the OT passage being cited by the author of Rev is equally, if not more explicit - Isaiah 25.6-9!!
Well done you - reading the whole book in a day. :astonished:

#4

I think you’re making it too easy. Again, who is the “their”? Are we talking about the occupants of the city?

#5

That’s a beautiful passage… I’m putting it here for reference:

Is 25 ~ (ESV)

6 On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine,
of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.
7 And he will swallow up on this mountain
the covering that is cast over all peoples,
the veil that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death forever;
and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces,
and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
for the Lord has spoken.
9 It will be said on that day,
“Behold, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us.
This is the Lord; we have waited for him;
let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

#6

Pilgrim and roofus, the statement that “there shall be no more death, sorrow, pain, nor crying” means no ECT even if “they” is a subgroup. If “they” is restricted to a subgroup, then it could support annihilation of those outside the “they”. But it cannot support ECT no matter how you look at it. The very existence of torment, crying, weeping, and gnashing of teeth would violate “there shall be no more. . .”

My husband’s objection was “The Bible says ‘for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’ but Jesus didn’t sin, so even when a passage sounds like it means everyone, it doesn’t” ((((sigh))))

#7

We have to listen to more of this speech from the ‘voice out of heaven’:
Rev 21:2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, …
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God with men! …
Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. And death shall be no longer, nor mourning, nor outcry, nor will there be pain any more; for the first things passed away.
…
Rev 21:6 And He said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending. To the one thirsting, I will freely give of the fountain of the Water of Life.
…
Rev 21:8 **But for the cowardly and unbelieving, … their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. **

#8

I agree. Even if this is directed just to the people inside the city, those people will have trouble relaxing (unless they have lost their empathy, surely they couldn’t help be grieve :confused: ) given the terrible sound of endless screaming coming in, through the open gates, from the Lake of Fire outside (full of 90% of humanity)! :open_mouth:

It’s similar to my thoughts on the passages in Isaiah prophesying peace, there can be no thorough peace on the New Earth or in Heaven, whilst Hell is still around.

#9

What do you think this means, pilgrim?

I am seeing it as a “baptism pool” where the old man/carnal nature dies and is left behind once and for all.

"14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood [waiting in line for their turn to enter the [b]baptism pool] Rev 22:14-15

#10

] Rev 22:14-15

I agree with your interpretation but I can see how ECTers would interpret it differently so I don’t think the passage points clearly to UR.

#11

I noticed you left out the rest of the passage? You can’t take a verse and build the context around that one verse. You have to take in the whole passage. God Bless! :slight_smile:

#12

I can’t remember the passage but there’s one that says the same thing but adds “to the glory of God”
ET would hardly bring glory to anyone most certainly not to out lord

edit:
Philippians 2:10-11 **That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. **
when coupled this with 1 Timothy 4:10 I can’t see how anyone can dispute that Christ will succeed in saving EVERYONE