Eternal Life

[Agnostic_Gabe]

This is not something new, but something that has been really on my mind lately. For whatever reason, it is assumed that Eternal Life means you live forever in Heaven. The whole goal of most Christians is to grin and bear it through this life so that in the next life they have to do nothing and will live forever.

So, we have John 3:16 which says “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” -ESV

Now, I have heard elsewhere that the word we translated as “perish” is the same one translated in the “lost” coin parable. I actually did look it up in the lexicon and it sure seems like this definition would fit “cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.”

This totally lines up and makes sense if we then define Eternal Life as Jesus does in the same book of John… John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” -ESV

Now, in my opinion this verse isn’t about the afterlife at all. It is about THIS life. Think about it… To not know God when I say know, I would say the 'Truth" either concrete or abstract means we are living a life of sin. We are lost and living destructive lives. To know Jesus Christ and his Father (Eternal Life) we are not lost nor aimlessly living, but know the truth and that truth gives us life for the fullest (provided we obey)…

I guess, where did the idea of Eternal Life come to mean that we would live forever? Now, I understand there are OTHER scriptures that say we will live forever (We will put on Immortality) but, that doesn’t mean Aionion life means we live forever… Perhaps it does, perhaps it doesn’t. What other definition besides Christ Jesus should we be using?

Thoughts?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Well, Gabe, I’ll let others comment on the particular Greek words. But if this were not the understanding, why do you think all the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and mainline Protestant denominations (as well as community churches, bible churches, TV evangelists, etc.) teach this?

I met the father of one of my neighbors recently. He teaches at Wheaton College and has his PhD in linguistics from the University of Chicago. But he also has two unrelated masters - one in theology (where he had to learn Hebrew and Greek). As someone who is a devote Christian and a language master (i.e. Greek, Koine Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, etc), he has no language issue with this teaching. So if folks get stuck here, I can also ask him or my Greek Orthodox female friend (i.e. Greek, Russian, English, Koine Greek and PhD in biblical archeology, from Oxford).

You can also browse through Wiki - Eternal life (Christianity)

[LLC]

Gabe, this is a very good point, and one in which I agree. I think the bible was written for the people living on Earth in the here and now. I also view the word “saved” in the same light. God came to Earth to give us instruction on how to live life in the present so that we don’t end up in self destruction, and we will have something to pass on to our children.

[Paidion]

Hi Gabe,

I’m not going to interpret John 3:16, but I am going to discuss the meaning of the two words you referenced. I don’t understand why translators render the Greek adjective "αἰωνιος¨(aiōnios) as “eternal.” The word is the adjectival form of the word “αἰων”(aiōn), which means “age.” However, I don’t agree with those universalists who translate the word as “age-long” either. The Septuagint translated the Hebrew “olam” as "αἰωνιος¨ with reference to Jonah’s three-day experience in the stomach of the great fish, and three days can hardly be said to be “age-long” although it probably felt like an age to Jonah! I think the best translation of "αἰωνιος¨ is “lasting.” The word “lasting” seems to fit all contexts. The word does not indicate any time frame, neither temporary nor eternal. The adjective is used to describe God Himself (Rom 16:26) and HE is certainly not temporary.

In secular Greek literature, the word “aiōnios” meant “lasting” or “enduring”. In the first century before Christ, Diodorus Siculus, a Greek historian, wrote:

“The second wall is in all other respects like the first, but of twice the height. The third circuit is rectangular in plan, and is sixty cubits in height, build of a stone hard and naturally “aiōnios”.

Was the stone naturally eternal? I don’t think so…

In “The Wars of the Jews,” Josephus wrote “…Jonathan condemned to “aiōnios” imprisonment.” Was Jonathan condemned to eternal imprisonment? It is said that his imprisonment was for a period of three years.

And now concerning the second word you mentioned: “ἀπολλυμι” (apollumi)
The word is used in the sense of “destroy”:

Matthew 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
Matthew 21:41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

And the word does indeed mean “perish”:

Matthew 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Matthew 8:25 Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

And finally, as you have noted, the word means “lose”:

Mark 8:35 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.
Mark 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

[Agnostic_Gabe]

Well, Gabe, I’ll let others comment on the particular Greek words. But if this were not the understanding, why do you think all the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and mainline Protestant denominations (as well as community churches, bible churches, TV evangelists, etc.) teach this?

For the same reason many intelligent authorities teach that there is no God. We can appeal to authority all we want, but the bottom line is that specific argument can be used against Christian’s in general. If 2 out of 3 intellectual’s don’t believe in Jesus, then clearly Jesus doesn’t exist… Right?

I really like Paidion’s take on it. Lasting does make the most sense. Eternal just doesn’t make sense in many cases.

Also, I remember reading that someone said Greek is one of the most ‘exact’ languages ever. I laughed when I heard that, if only because we can’t even agree what certain words mean, and we can see all through the Bible where the same Greek word is translated in different English words. Tell me, if that language is so exact, why does there still remain ambiguity?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Well, Gabe, I’ll let others comment on the particular Greek words. But if this were not the understanding, why do you think all the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and mainline Protestant denominations (as well as community churches, bible churches, TV evangelists, etc.) teach this?

For the same reason many intelligent authorities teach that there is no God. We can appeal to authority all we want, but the bottom line is that specific argument can be used against Christian’s in general. If 2 out of 3 intellectual’s don’t believe in Jesus, then clearly Jesus doesn’t exist… Right?

Well, Gabe, folks can construct logically sound arguments to prove the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, etc. And they may make logical sense. But not if we accept scientific discovery, as we know it. We can have supporting evidence that something is historically taught. Linguistics, biblical archeology, anthropology, history, scientific dating of documents, etc. It’s up to us to believe (or not believe) what is historically taught and accepted, what science conveys, etc.

[Agnostic_Gabe]

Well, Gabe, I’ll let others comment on the particular Greek words. But if this were not the understanding, why do you think all the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and mainline Protestant denominations (as well as community churches, bible churches, TV evangelists, etc.) teach this?

For the same reason many intelligent authorities teach that there is no God. We can appeal to authority all we want, but the bottom line is that specific argument can be used against Christian’s in general. If 2 out of 3 intellectual’s don’t believe in Jesus, then clearly Jesus doesn’t exist… Right?

Well, Gabe, folks can construct logically sound arguments to prove the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, etc. And they may make logical sense. But not if we accept scientific discovery, as we know it. We can have supporting evidence that something is historically taught. Linguistics, biblical archeology, anthropology, history, scientific dating of documents, etc. It’s up to us to believe (or not believe) what is historically taught and accepted, what science conveys, etc.

I entirely agree.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

[Paidion]

Hmmm… my father-in-law believed in a flat earth.

But tell me, how does the Flat-Earth Society explain what many persons have observed, including myself—a ship receding in the distance appearing to go down, down, until just the sail is appararent, and then that, too goes down until it is out of sight?

Also, how do they explain that planes have flown in a single direction and have thereby returned to their starting point?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

[anon12438761]

I think the Earth is semi-circular. That should keep everyone happy, and that makes me a blessed peacemaker!!

[LLC]

Way back in the ancient days they knew the earth was round because of our shadow on the moon. But this information had been lost. As Ecclesiastes says, there is nothing new under the sun. All that now is will be forgotten in the days to come. I believe it’s basically a discovery, or a rediscovery, of truth that has always been there from the beginning.

[pilgrim]

What is wrong with you people!!!
The earth is a Klein bottle.

[Paidion]

I’m trying to understand how this discussion of whether the earth is a ball or a pie plate, is related to the topic “Eternal Life.”
Well… I guess it’s related if it turns out that we will have everlasting life right here on earth. We’ll have plenty of time to determine whether it’s round like a ball or flat like a pancake.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I’m trying to understand how this discussion of whether the earth is a ball or a pie plate, is related to the topic “Eternal Life.”
Well… I guess it’s related if it turns out that we will have everlasting life right here on earth. We’ll have plenty of time to determine whether it’s round like a ball or flat like a pancake.

I think it was Gabe’s comment that you can appeal to authority for anything. Then I commented that you can construct logical arguments for anything - which Gabe agreed with. Then I added some YouTube videos from the Flat Earth Society as examples. Along with some videos illustrating that the earth is round. Of course, it never occurred to me that others might take different views - like the earth is shaped like an accordion, donut, Möbius strip, etc. I guess we have to make room for all these alternative viewpoints or positions.

[Paidion]

I did learn to my surprise that the Flat Earth Society doesn’t see the earth as flat like a pancake, but shaped more like a cone (with a solid flat top, of course). I am guessing that the reason for that is that if it were flat like a pancake one could drill through to the other side of the pancake without going very far. But people have actually drilled about 12 km into the earth. In spite of that, I suppose the earth could still be a fairly thick pancake, but perhaps, in order to be on the safe side, the flat-earthers conceive of it as a cone.

[davo]

I’m thinking those flat-earthers are either wearing or more likely smoking cones.